BaliMA
Member
However what is wrong is Pedophilia, Sharia Condemns it. Pedophilia occurs when adults rape, molest or enforce themselves on prepubescent children. A child that hasnt reached puberty is called prepubescent under 8-9 yrs.
let me get this straight is a 9, 10,11, 12, 13 year old girl child ready to be married and if some50 year old marries her with the permission of the parents of the child there is nothing wrong with that?
NNL
member
Balima wrote
let me get this straight is a 9, 10,11, 12, 13 year old girl child ready to be married and if some50 year old marries her with the permission of the parents of the child there is nothing wrong with that?
============================
And in the presence of the Society and that marriage is known to everyone.
Islam has allowed it. You have issues with it then take it up with the one who revealed it.
BaliMA
Member
Having sexual relations with a minor after obtaining parental consent is very normal?
NNL
member
Define a minor ?
jaypk
Member
Heeyy NNl…y you get hyper mate?? …just be cool and calm…I mean…you can call me jahil and I still dnt lose my plot and come bak with the arguments…you can call OUR holy prophet (PBUH) dancing on the mountains and a sufi hippie..but it wasn’t ill…but then if I show that how merciful he (PBUH) was which is the actual quality of Allah SWT as well who is raheem and kareem so do you want to argue with that? I know he (Allah SWT) is not only qahhaar and jabbar…he is raheem and kareem as welll.....so dnt jump to results one sidedly…anyhow..lets come to the arguments and dnt get personal…Allah SWT knows well abt us all… .!! and whds this my rasool and my rasool thing…say OUR rasool SAWW (PBUH)..!
Also I think we are drifting away from blasphem to adultery…so we have to be focused.
Whos arguing with quran naoozubillah? If Allah SWT is saying in quran that be harsh to hypocrites and kuffar thn who is sayin all this???
Quite a number of the people of the Book wish they could turn you (people) back to infidelity after ye have believed, from selfish envy, after the truth hath become manifest unto them; but forgive and overlook, till Allah accomplish His purpose; for Allah hath power over all things. (Al baqarah 109)..!
I m not denyin the fact abt being harsh but you cant make a thumbrule as per your sayings..! there are conditions fr everything..!
What about … "Forgiveness is only incumbent on Allah towards those who do evil out of ignorance and then turn quickly (in repentance) to Allah. Toward them will Allah turn in mercy; for Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom." (4:17)..isnt this in quran? Or you just want to see the side of picture you like?..?
Are you holding this belief that Nazubillah Rasool Allah Sallaho Alahi Wa Aalayhi Wasallam was disobedient to Allah ?
its your own creation ..i haven’t said anything like tht..!!
I dare you to show once where he was lenient to any adulterer. Dont speak ill about my Rasool I swear by Allah you will find yourself in deep trouble. Dont accuse the Rasool of being something that he wasnt. How dare you say that He Rasool Allah Sallaho Alahi Wa Aalayhi Wasallam was lenient in enforcing the Sharia.
Why arre you mixing adultery with blasphemy??.....i m nt accusing anything….you should have a better choice of words…and kindly quote me the line whr I said tht he (PBUH) was lenient in enforcing sharia? You are creating things based on your own judgements just because you don’t want to see the lighter side of the religion. Besides you are mixing shariya up with blaspheme…so its nt point arguing…!! And I think it would be better if instead of warning me that I ll be in trouble , have some worry abt yerself….and leave the rest for me...main jaanun mera khuda jaanay..!!
Do you believe in incident of Tai,f or was tht a week incident for you? Wasn’t tht blasphem? The ppl stoned our holy prophet(PBUH) but he still prayed fr them. d yes to the angel who came to destroy the ppl?
“Aisha reported, ‘The Jews came to the Prophet (p.b.u.h.) and said, ‘Death overtake you! may Allah curse you and may Allah’s wrath descend on you. He (the Prophet) said: ‘Gently, O A’isha! Be courteous, and keep thyself away from roughness.”
( I m looking for the actual source and would let you know ASAP)
Isnt that what you are trying to do making a thumb rule of mercy for every despicable piece of crap who dares to insult the Nabi Sallaho Alahi Wa A'alayhi Wasallam.
This is also your own creation…I haven’t implied anything like tht…!!
Anyhoo i did like to see the references of the Rubbish throwing lady and that man who snatched the chaddar ? Cos wallahi i can assure you that there was no Chaddar in the time of Rasool Allah Sallaho Alahi Wa Aalayhi Wasallam. if you are refering to Izar then its not Chaddar. Arabs didnt have Chaddars if you know the Arabs then you will understand. Chaddar is a Persian tradition ( i think ) not an arab one
Anas has narrated: "I was walking with the Prophet. He had wrapped a thick chadar round his body. One Arab pulled the chadar so forcefully that a part of his shoulder could be seen by me, and I was perturbed by this forceful pulling of the chadar. The Arab then said: '0 Muhammed! Give me some of my share from the property which Allah has given you.' The Prophet turned towards him and laughed, and gave orders for a donation being given to him." Hadith 4:377 (Bukhari)
I just narrated it as I read it…may be you have loads of knowledge about chaadars and the arabs and the Persians but this is not the point. May it be izar or anything its nt the point but the point is forgivenss and blasphem as if he can forgive someone who did this act thn why cant we?
I ll look for that jewish lady incident..but I think you are right on that…as I cant see anything authoratitve on that incident.
Everyone will go to Jannah. ?
Can i have the evidence where it is said that everyone will go to Jannah. Can you define everyone. Do you believe that there would be No Jahanum ? Ibless and Abu Jahl will go ultimately to Jannah ?
.again you are generalizing mate..plz..be specific and dnt jump to conclusions and shove it on…ofcourse if we all keep on commitin sins and keeping tht in mind tht we would get shafaat its non sense…but my point was that had blaspheme be so strict and harsh there was no concept of intercession at all for anyone who was directly or inderctly involved.
My Rasool Allah Sallaho Alahi Wa Aalayhi Wasallam will ask Mercy from Allah for himself then he will ask permission of Allah to intercede on the behalf of the person. Without Allah's permission My Nabi will not do anything. So if you do shirk and act your entire life like Abu Jahl do u think Allah will allow Rasool Allah to intercede.
So at the end its Allah SWT right..its his decision right….he is the most merciful and the most gracious right…if he loves us more then a mother loves her child..and if he can forgive tht person who killed 99 ppl so who are you and me to kill ppl in the name of religion…he SWT knows everything…!!
NNL
member
Wah ji Wah
You like to make random generalizations and then make weird statements and then expect the other person to be calm and composed Ajeeb. Then your arguments are very long posts in where you try to make a point but its either lacking evidence or incomplete.
So you believe that Rasool Allah Sallaho Alahi Wa Aala Alahi wasallam is also a Part of Allah Azza Wa Jal as the Rasool Sallaho Alahi Wa Aala Alahi wasallam shares the same qualities of Allah ?
I dont get personal but when someone accuses My Rasool Allah Sallaho Alahi Wa Aala Alahi wasallam to be something that he Sallaho Alahi Wa Aala Alahi wasallam is not then i get personal. Cos you have attacked my Nabi Sallaho Alahi Wa Aala Alahi wasallam and that i cant tolerate. Thus your perception of the Rasool Allah Sallaho Alahi Wa Aala Alahi wasallam is very much different from that Actual Man thus your and mine terminology.
I posted you an ayah which was later revealed and you still believe that you have to be nice to the Kuffar and Hypocrites. We arent talking about the exceptions here. Its a general rule and thats it.
Yet you keep on bringing this argument no he wasnt like that he was like and that ? Isnt that arguing ?
Allah Says be harsh to the Kuffar and you say no no Rasool Allah Sallaho Alahi Wa Aala Alahi wasallam was nice to them, was merciful to them. Which shows that u are arguing with the Quran and then insinuate that Rasool was disobedient. Auzubillah.
Then you wrote this >>> Quite a number of the people of the Book wish they could turn you (people) back to infidelity after ye have believed, from selfish envy, after the truth hath become manifest unto them; but forgive and overlook, till Allah accomplish His purpose; for Allah hath power over all things. (Al baqarah 109)..! <<<
my response is from the Tafsir of the Ayah.
(Many of the People of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) wish that they could turn you away..) regarding his matter.
Also, Ad-Dahhak said that Ibn Abbas said, "An unlettered Messenger came to the People of the Scriptures confirming what they have in their own Books about the Messengers and the Ayat of Allah. He also believes in all of this, just as they believe in it. Yet, they rejected the Prophet out of disbelief, envy and transgression. This is why Allah said,
[كُفَّارًا حَسَدًا مِّنْ عِنْدِ أَنْفُسِهِمْ مِّن بَعْدِ مَا تَبَيَّنَ لَهُمُ الْحَقُّ]
(out of envy from their own selves, even after the truth (that Muhammad is Allah's Messenger) has become manifest unto them).
Allah said that after He illuminated the truth for them, such that they were not ignorant of any of it, yet their envy made them deny the Prophet . Thus Allah criticized, chastised and denounced them. Allah legislated the characteristics that His Prophet and the believers should adhere to: belief, faith and accepting what Allah revealed to them and to those before them out of His generosity and tremendous kindness.
Ar-Rabi bin Anas said that,
[مِّنْ عِنْدِ أَنْفُسِهِمْ]
(from their own selves) means, "of their making. Also, Abu Al-Aliyah said that,
[مِّن بَعْدِ مَا تَبَيَّنَ لَهُمُ الْحَقُّ]
(even after the truth (that Muhammad is Allah's Messenger) has become manifest unto them) means, "After it became clear that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah whom they find written of in the Torah and the Injil. They denied him in disbelief and transgression because he was not one of them. Qatadah and Ar-Rabi bin Anas said similarly. Allah said,
[فَاعْفُواْ وَاصْفَحُواْ حَتَّى يَأْتِىَ اللَّهُ بِأَمْرِهِ]
(But forgive and overlook, till Allah brings His command.) this is similar to His saying;
[وَلَتَسْمَعُنَّ مِنَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُواْ الْكِتَـبَ مِن قَبْلِكُمْ وَمِنَ الَّذِينَ أَشْرَكُواْ أَذًى كَثِيراً]
(And you shall certainly hear much that will grieve you from those who received the Scripture before you (Jews and Christians) and from those who ascribe partners to Allah) (3: 186).
Ali bin Abi Talhah said that Ibn Abbas said that Allah's statement,
[فَاعْفُواْ وَاصْفَحُواْ حَتَّى يَأْتِىَ اللَّهُ بِأَمْرِهِ]
(But forgive and overlook, till Allah brings His command.) was abrogated by the Ayah,
[فَاقْتُلُواْ الْمُشْرِكِينَ حَيْثُ وَجَدتُّمُوهُمْ]
(Then kill the Mushrikin wherever you find them) (9:5), and,
[قَـتِلُواْ الَّذِينَ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَلاَ بِالْيَوْمِ الاٌّخِرِ]
(Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day) (9:29) until,
[وَهُمْ صَـغِرُونَ]
(And feel themselves subdued) (9:29).
Allah's pardon for the disbelievers was repealed.'' Abu Al- Aliyah, Ar-Rabi bin Anas, Qatadah and As-Suddi said similarly: It was abrogated by the Ayah of the sword." (Mentioned above). The Ayah,
[حَتَّى يَأْتِىَ اللَّهُ بِأَمْرِهِ]
(till Allah brings His command.) gives further support for this view.
Ibn Abi Hatim recorded Usamah bin Zayd saying that the Messenger of Allah and his Companions used to forgive the disbelievers and the People of the Book, just as Allah commanded in His statement,
(till Allah brings His command.) gives further support for this view.
Ibn Abi Hatim recorded Usamah bin Zayd saying that the Messenger of Allah and his Companions used to forgive the disbelievers and the People of the Book, just as Allah commanded in His statement,
[فَاعْفُواْ وَاصْفَحُواْ حَتَّى يَأْتِىَ اللَّهُ بِأَمْرِهِ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلَى كُلِّ شَىْءٍ قَدِيرٌ]
(But forgive and overlook, till Allah brings His command. Verily, Allah is able to do all things).
The Messenger of Allah used to forgive them and was patient with them as Allah ordered him, until Allah allowed fighting them. Then Allah destroyed those who He decreed to be killed among the strong men of Quraysh, by the Prophet's forces. The chain of narration for this text is Sahih, but I did not see its wordings in the six collections of Hadith, although the basis of it is in the Two Sahihs, narrated from Usamah bin Zayd. Tafsir ibn Kathir
Than you wrote >> "Forgiveness is only incumbent on Allah towards those who do evil out of ignorance and then turn quickly (in repentance) to Allah. Toward them will Allah turn in mercy; for Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom." (4:17) <<<<
Do you realise that what you are quoting is for Believers. Do you even understand the Ayah ? Did you even bother to read the Ayah next to it or the one before it ?
Again from Tafsir
Allah states that He accepts repentance of the servant who commits an error in ignorance and then repents, even just before he sees the angel who captures the soul, before his soul reaches his throat. Mujahid and others said, "Every person who disobeys Allah by mistake, or intentionally is ignorant, until he refrains from the sin.'' Qatadah said that Abu Al- Aliyah narrated that the Companions of the Messenger of Allah used to say, "Every sin that the servant commits, he commits out of ignorance.'' Abdur-Razzaq narrated that, Mamar said that Qatadah said that, the Companions of the Messenger of Allah agreed that every sin that is committed by intention or otherwise, is committed in ignorance". Ibn Jurayj said, "Abdullah bin Kathir narrated to me that Mujahid said, Every person who disobeys Allah (even willfully), is ignorant while committing the act of disobedience. Ibn Jurayj said, " Ata bin Abi Rabah told me something similar. Abu Salih said that Ibn Abbas commented, "It is because of one's ignorance that he commits the error. Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that Ibn Abbas said about the Ayah,
[ثُمَّ يَتُوبُونَ مِن قَرِيبٍ]
(and repent soon (afterwards)), "Until just before he (or she) looks at the angel of death.'' Ad-Dahhak said, "Every thing before death is soon [afterwards].'' Al-Hasan Al-Basri said about the Ayah,
[ثُمَّ يَتُوبُونَ مِن قَرِيبٍ]
(and repent soon afterwards), "Just before his last breath leaves his throat.'' Ikrimah said, "All of this life is soon [afterwards].'' Imam Ahmad recorded that Ibn Umar said that the Messenger said,
«إِنَّ اللهَ يَقْبَلُ تَوْبَةَ الْعَبْدِمَالَمْ يُغَرْغِر»
(Allah accepts the repentance of the servant as long as the soul does not reach the throat.) This Hadith was also collected by At-Tirmidhi and Ibn Majah, and At-Tirmidhi said, "Hasan Gharib''. By mistake, Ibn Majah mentioned that this Hadith was narrated through Abdullah bin Amr. However, what is correct is that Abdullah bin Umar bin Al-Khattab was the narrator. Allah said,
[فَأُوْلَـئِكَ يَتُوبُ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِمْ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ عَلِيماً حَكِيماً]
(It is they to whom Allah will forgive and Allah is Ever All-Knower, All-Wise.) Surely, when hope in continued living diminishes, the angel of death comes forth and the soul reaches the throat, approaches the chest and arrives at the state where it is being gradually pulled out, then there is no accepted repentance, nor a way out of that certain end. Hence Allah's statements,
[وَلَيْسَتِ التَّوْبَةُ لِلَّذِينَ يَعْمَلُونَ السَّيِّئَـتِ حَتَّى إِذَا حَضَرَ أَحَدَهُمُ الْمَوْتُ قَالَ إِنِّى تُبْتُ الاٌّنَ]
(And of no effect is the repentance of those who continue to do evil deeds until death faces one of them and he says: "Now I repent,'') and,
[فَلَمَّا رَأَوْاْ بَأْسَنَا قَالُواْ ءَامَنَّا بِاللَّهِ وَحْدَهُ]
(So when they saw Our punishment, they said: "We believe in Allah Alone...'') [40:84] Allah decided that repentance shall not be accepted from the people of the earth when the sun rises from the west, as Allah said,
[يَوْمَ يَأْتِى بَعْضُ ءَايَـتِ رَبِّكَ لاَ يَنفَعُ نَفْسًا إِيمَانُهَا لَمْ تَكُنْ ءَامَنَتْ مِن قَبْلُ أَوْ كَسَبَتْ فِى إِيمَـنِهَا خَيْرًا]
(The day that some of the signs of your Lord do come, no good will it do to a person to believe then, if he believed not before, nor earned good through his faith.) [6:158]. oAllah said,
[وَلاَ الَّذِينَ يَمُوتُونَ وَهُمْ كُفَّارٌ]
(nor of those who die while they are disbelievers.) Consequently, when the disbeliever dies while still a disbeliever and polytheist, his sorrow and repentance shall not avail him. If he were to ransom himself, even with the earth's fill of gold, it will not be accepted from him. Ibn Abbas, Abu Al- Aliyah and Ar-Rabi bin Anas said that the Ayah:
[وَلاَ الَّذِينَ يَمُوتُونَ وَهُمْ كُفَّارٌ]
(nor of those who die while they are disbelievers), was revealed about the people of Shirk. Imam Ahmad recorded that Usamah bin Salman said that Abu Dharr said that the Messenger of Allah said,
«إِنَّ اللهَ يَقْبَلُ تَوْبَةَ عَبْدِهِ أَوْ يَغْفِرُ لِعَبْدِهِ مَالَمْ يَقَعِ الْحِجَاب»
(Allah accepts the repentance of His servant, or forgives His servant, as long as the veil does not drop.) They asked, "And what does the drop of the veil mean '' He said,
«أَنْ تَخْرُجَ النَّفْسُ وَهِيَ مُشْرِكَة»
(When the soul is removed while one is a polythiest.) Allah then said,
[أُوْلَـئِكَ أَعْتَدْنَا لَهُمْ عَذَاباً أَلِيماً]
(For them We have prepared a painful torment), torment that is severe, eternal and enormous.
Then you wrote >>> Why arre you mixing adultery with blasphemy??.....i m nt accusing anything….you should have a better choice of words…and kindly quote me the line whr I said tht he (PBUH) was lenient in enforcing sharia? You are creating things based on your own judgements just because you don’t want to see the lighter side of the religion. Besides you are mixing shariya up with blaspheme…so its nt point arguing…!! And I think it would be better if instead of warning me that I ll be in trouble , have some worry abt yerself….and leave the rest for me...main jaanun mera khuda jaanay..!!<<<
really i m ? you were the one who asked me to point you out where Rasool Allah Sallaho Alahi Wa Aala Aallayhi Wasallam ever ordered whipping or lashing !!! You forgot let me remind you in this post >> kindly give me an example so tht I can figure out how (naoozubillah) our holy prophet (PBUH) was involved in whipping/lashing someone?
....Are you being serious??? http://pkpolitics.com/discuss/topic/the-unholy-law-blasphemy-laws-in-pakistan/page/3#post-113577
Short memory have we ?
So Blasphemy is outside Sharia ? Do you know the meaning of Sharia ? Oh one more thing is there a ligher side of the religion and heavier side ? So you believe Islam to be 2 faced ?
Then you wrote >> Do you believe in incident of Tai,f or was tht a week incident for you? Wasn’t tht blasphem? The ppl stoned our holy prophet(PBUH) but he still prayed fr them. d yes to the angel who came to destroy the ppl?
“Aisha reported, ‘The Jews came to the Prophet (p.b.u.h.) and said, ‘Death overtake you! may Allah curse you and may Allah’s wrath descend on you. He (the Prophet) said: ‘Gently, O A’isha! Be courteous, and keep thyself away from roughness.”
( I m looking for the actual source and would let you know ASAP) <<<<
The taif incident needs the report and as for the Hadith of Umm-ul-Momineen Aisha Radhi Allah Unhu its the following from Sahih Bukhari Kitab Al Adab :- Narrated 'Abdullah bin Mulaika: 'aisha said that the Jews came to the Prophet and said, "As-Samu 'Alaikum" (death be on you). 'aisha said (to them), "(Death) be on you, and may Allah curse you and shower His wrath upon you!" The Prophet said, "Be calm, O 'aisha ! You should be kind and lenient, and beware of harshness and Fuhsh (i.e. bad words)." She said (to the Prophet), "Haven't you heard what they (Jews) have said?" He said, "Haven't you heard what I have said (to them)? I said the same to them, and my invocation against them will be accepted while theirs against me will be rejected (by Allah). " (Book #73, Hadith #57)
Its pretty evident from the Hadith that she was stopped from using bad words as Allah Azza Wa Jal dislikes them. I believe you havent read the complete didnt you.
You wrote >>> Isnt that what you are trying to do making a thumb rule of mercy for every despicable piece of crap who dares to insult the Nabi Sallaho Alahi Wa A'alayhi Wasallam.
This is also your own creation…I haven’t implied anything like tht…!!<<<<
SO you do agree that a person who insults the Rasool Allah Sallaho Alahi Wa Aala Alayhi Wasallam should be punished.
Then you wrote >> The Hadith I just narrated it as I read it…may be you have loads of knowledge about chaadars and the arabs and the Persians but this is not the point. May it be izar or anything its nt the point but the point is forgivenss and blasphem as if he can forgive someone who did this act thn why cant we?<?em> <<<< The CORRECT HADITH IS AS FOLLOWS. Burd Najrani ? ever heard of it do you know of it.
I think you are referring to this hadith and it no where includes Chaddar. Plus its a bedouin. Do you know how bedouins are ? Cmon Jay
Then you wrote the most weirdest thing ever >> .again you are generalizing mate..plz..be specific and dnt jump to conclusions and shove it on…ofcourse if we all keep on commitin sins and keeping tht in mind tht we would get shafaat its non sense…but my point was that had blaspheme be so strict and harsh there was no concept of intercession at all for anyone who was directly or inderctly involved <<<
Like are you sure what u are saying. Are you talking about Muslims ? or Non Muslims do you realise that Blasphemy is charge that is applied to Non Muslims only ? I am generalizing arent you the one who is generalizing here when you the following "and also..if he didnt beleive tht everyone will go to jannah thn y all the muslim ummah is in the hope tht on the doomsday he (PBUH) would be there for our Shifa,at and he (PBUH) would be our saviour from hell?"
If you believe him to be Shifa'a to the Muslims only then why the heck are you discussing Muslims and Blasphemy. Muslms dont blaspheme. Dude like do you know that you are being incoherent here. like you arent making sense at all. According to you Rasool is for Muslims Shifaa only then by default he wouldnt be the Prophet of Mercy for every one which agains proves my point that the Mercy is for the Believers and if you say that he is Mercy for All then Why is there Jahanum ?
And then you followed this by another statement for which we will need a reference you wrote >> So at the end its Allah SWT right..its his decision right….he is the most merciful and the most gracious right…if he loves us more then a mother loves her child..and if he can forgive tht person who killed 99 ppl so who are you and me to kill ppl in the name of religion…he SWT knows everything…!! <<
Can you provide the reference of that 99 murder man being forgiven ? i did like to know the parameters of it that case.
You keep on and on making generalizations switching from topics to topics to make an argument or a valid point but it doesnt seem to help you. So you think that the Rasool killed the people in the name of religion ? So you think enforcing Sharia and Punishment for Insulting the Prophet is killing people in the name religion ?
How very weird.
jaypk
Member
@NNl..yea yea yea...i m weird...!!
btw...so you dnt beleive in the taif incident as you said it needs report??.??....whr to start frm now?? :)..so anythin which points towards leneincy and miyana ravi and darmiyana rasta as said by ourholy prophet(PBUH) in islamm you dnt believe... and anything which is like..killing hanging stoning lashing and br rude like hell to kuffar without any reason whdsoever is islam??..tht is islam fr you...!!
i ll come bak with the reply later on...and as fr you gettin personal..you did tht the first time mate you ever replied to me..you dint even know me at tht time and you called me the person who bleievd tht we are ibn e monkey...and i was like..who is he..? he doesnt even know me....so dnt make this thread an excuse to get personal..:)..
jaypk
Member
NNl..oh ok..so the Taif incident needs a report.?? means you dnt beleive in tht...?? ok...
i have given you enough evidences..but stil if you say they lack evidence thn whd can i say..yer point..still i never got hyper and i nevr called anyone names..evidences frm bukhari are nt enough fr you...neva mind..!!
if there is anyone on this planet and thr was anyone...whom Allah SWT loved the most...it would be our holy prophet (PBUH)..and no one else till the doomsday..?? agreed? so how come he (PBUH) would do anything tht is disliked by Allah SWT...thts all i m sayin...and it doesnt mean tht be humble and courteous all the time and it deosnt mean tht start whippin and lashin all the time..thr are conditions fr everythin so if you say he (PBUH) was ready to lash all the time i disagree...and whn i say he (PBUH) was forgiving all the time...i dnt mean tht as well...!!
and kindly dnt say..my rasool my rasool (PBUh) as i said...stop being the thaikedars of religion my friend...he(PBUH) was as respected and beloved to me as to anyone else..i cant say to anyone tht he is only my rasool(PBUH)..hr(PBUH) was rehmat for the whole world..if thr are sum misconceptions may it be in my mind or yer mind or anyone elses mind..i just can get furious and stand up and call other jahil and declare myself as the only one who is the lover of our prophet(PBUH)...misconceptions are a part of every religion adn they can be solved on a calm basis...nt by taking proprietary and bashin others of havin nill knowledge...husn e ikhlqa bhee sunnat e nabwi hay..agar itna he pyar hay to thora bohat basic sunnat par bhee amal kar liya karo bhai !!
you dnt have to be nice to kufar and hypocrites ,...in a certain conditions..its nt a general rule..if thts the case thn y in ghazwa and wars our holy Prophet(PBUH) asked others to be nice to prisoners of war and specially ladies and elders and kids...if its a rule thn...they were kufar as well....again...i m nt sayin tht we have to be nice to them all the time...ofcourse if they wage a war against us thn we have to defend ourselves...and nt jsut sit and call them n be nice..!!
thanks fr the tafseer of the ayah...but i never said anythin like he(PBUH) disobeyed and all tht..it was yer creation..!1
no i dont know the meanin of sharia..only you have all the knowledge..islam hasnt got 2 faces...if there was only one solution to everythin thn i m surprised tht why we have been urged to take the darmiyana raasta or miyana ravi by our holy prophet(PBUH).
andi m nt sayin tht anyone who say anythin abt our holy prophet(PBUH) would let lose...ofcourse not..but whn we make this an excuse fr burning ppl alive withuot any evidence and whn our mosques being used to say things like go and burn them this is whr my argument is becasue thn we are blinded by the jazbat and dnt distinguish between the actual culprits and the innocents...still we all have the love of our holy prophet(PBUH) and it hurts if anyone plays with the religion and prophet(PBUH) name.
this is whd the thread is all abt i gues...killin ppl in the name of religion..so i m nt divertin at all..and i m nt makin any generlalizations...its the thread mate..have a look...come bak..kuch naee kaha jayega...:)
FYI..these are the 2 links...fr the person who killed 99 others...and stated in bukhari and muslim both...i m pretty sure this needs report as well...and this evidence wouldnt be enough for you..:)
http://islam101.net/real-tales/230-repentance-a-man-wo-had-killed-99.html
zia m
Member
NNL and Jaypk, you are both right in your understanding of the religion.I used to belong to Ahl-Hadith group and had the same views as NNL, Sufism was a perverted sect for me.
After a deeper look I found the Meccan verses much more tolerant towards others than the ones revealed in Medina.
Luckily for Muslims there are atleast 4 times more Muslims who believe in a more tolerant Islam than the orthodox Muslims.It does hurt my ego but I'm willing to accept the majority view in the greater interst of the human kind.
I know the intentions on both sides are genuine but the fact indicates humans have always opted for the future and I'm looking forward for the day when we will all learn to live in peace and harmony.
jaypk
Member
@zia m..def mate..but whn i say this tht orthodox islam and tolerant islam or meccan or medina or however you depict it...thn ppl are like.. whd you are saying.....ppl say...is islam 2 faced??...lolz..and i would be wierd and dnt make sense...i mean how easily we can change the parameters of our debate...!!
...if sumone blasphemes about Allah SWT or our holy prophet (PBUH) fr tht matter ofcourse it hurts and none of us would feel like listening to it....but i as an individual would chose to pray fr him tht may God show him the right way and give him hidayat rahter then hanging him up or burning him down as this would be of no use as well becasue by doing this neither he will learn a lesson since he wouldnt be alive to learn anyways nor the rest of the world would learn a lesson besides callin islam a less tolerant religion and they would get more chance for spreading the propaganda...!!
i totally respect the other point of view and admit tht thr are condition fr implemeting each.. but i expect the same in response.....:)
NNL
member
NNl..oh ok..so the Taif incident needs a report.?? means you dnt beleive in tht...?? ok...
==========
No u were looking for reports and i told u that i have the report for this one and u can look for the other one.
Jaypk wrote:-
i have given you enough evidences..but stil if you say they lack evidence thn whd can i say..yer point..still i never got hyper and i nevr called anyone names..evidences frm bukhari are nt enough fr you...neva mind..!!
===========
Meray bhai evidences for what ? Mercy ? I never argued to say that he wasnt mercy. But dont think that his Mercy was just a complete blanket for all. He hated any who disobeyed Allah Azza Wa Jal period. Rasool Allah Sallaho Alahi Wa Aala Alahi wasallam's mercy is in that he Sallaho Alahi Wa Aala Alahi wasallam is saving you from Hellfire. Thats the actual mercy. The one that truly counts.
The hadith u quoted u didnt post the right wordings I posted u the correct words and explained the hadith for u. I didnt reject it. You are confusing the Blasphemy rule for Muslims. The Sharia deals with the Muslims and the Non-Muslims differently. We are talking about NOn Muslims over here.
You started the entire argument on this by asking the evidences for Rasool Allah Sallaho Alahi Wa Aala Alahi wasallam's whipping and lashing. While you didnt even realise that that Rasool Allah Sallaho Alahi Wa Aala Alahi wasallam on an average fought 3 wars per year after Jihad was Allowed. So your version of Mercy doesnt fit the MAn of Quraish. It may fit some shi-tty person but not my Rasool Allah Sallaho Alahi Wa Aala Alahi Wasallam.
Then you brought other evidences to support ur claim and i countered them using them as the evidence. What i m trying to get thru you is that your concept for the Mercy that you have attributed to the Messenger of Islam isnt him at all.
Jaypk wrote
and whn i say he (PBUH) was forgiving all the time...i dnt mean tht as well...!!
=============
Thats the gist of your entire post and u have been trying to insinuate that in almost every thread. He was merciful to all the believers and peace-loving to anyone who watned peace and shared jokes with friends and played around with children but when you slightly went off base with the Sharia of Allah he Sallaho Alahi Wa Alalayhi Wasallam didnt hesitate for a second to behead the person if his crime demanded that.
Jaypk wrote
and kindly dnt say..my rasool my rasool (PBUh) as i said...stop being the thaikedars of religion my friend
================
You attribute wrong qualities to him Sallaho Alahi Wa Alalayhi Wasallam and then expect Muslims to just stand by and watch. The man i believe to be Muhammad Sallaho Alahi Wa Alalayhi Wasallam was a strong man and definitely not what ppl say about him these days.
Jaypk wrote:
misconceptions are a part of every religion adn they can be solved on a calm basis
======================
No they arent part of Islam. In Islam nothing is misconcepted. If your understanding of Islam is wrong whose fault is it yours or Islam. ?
Jaypk wrote
nt by taking proprietary and bashin others of havin nill knowledge.
================
Bashing ? I havent bashed you yet. You claim to have a correct understanding and the rest having wrong understanding so didnt you start the bashing ? and since you are unable to defend your beliefs you come up with bashing ? Ajeeb Seriously Ajeeb.
Jaypk wrote
if thts the case thn y in ghazwa and wars our holy Prophet(PBUH) asked others to be nice to prisoners of war and specially ladies and elders and kids...if its a rule thn...they were kufar as well
================
Again it shows that you have no idea what you are talking about and just applying your logic or your perception of as what you see of things ? Dude There is an order from Allah to be nice to them u think that this quality was of Rasool's own ? like can you just stop making up ur own interpretations and spreading them as the divine truth.
Jaypk wrote
thanks fr the tafseer of the ayah...but i never said anythin like he(PBUH) disobeyed and all tht..it was yer creation..!
====================
Your persistent insinuations are catching up to you so its about time u accept them.
Jaypk wrote
islam hasnt got 2 faces.
===========
Wont you love that. Sadly but no your wish that Islam has 2 faces doesnt get fulfilled.
Jaypk wrote
but whn we make this an excuse fr burning ppl alive withuot any evidence and whn our mosques being used to say things like go and burn them this is whr my argument is becasue thn we are blinded by the jazbat and dnt distinguish between the actual culprits and the innocents.
==================
I have never argued with about that. Any misuse of the Law is again a crime and Justice should be served. But that doesnt mean that you abrogate the law. Thats my argument.
Jaypk wrote
this is whd the thread is all abt i gues...killin ppl in the name of religion..so i m nt divertin at all..and i m nt makin any generlalizations
======================
Your long posts are filled with generalizations and incorrect notions and your own interpretations of what Islam says regarding a matter. I think you are the one who should have a look in the thread. The Law is being argued. If the way it was applied in certain instances and the offenders were punished outside the realm of the Law by unauthorized ppl then yes i did be advocating that such instances should be stopped i.e the Chirstians being burnt by the people without the law being involved. Random acts of violence are not accepted in Islam thus by any muslim too.
Jaypk wrote
FYI..these are the 2 links...fr the person who killed 99 others...and stated in bukhari and muslim both...i m pretty sure this needs report as well...and this evidence wouldnt be enough for you
===============================
Lol i cant believe at ur level of understanding things the entire hadith is about the way the man worked for repentance he struggled for it. He didnt say I am sorry i apologize and you take this into oh no saying sorry is enuf. I mean seriously u are kidding me right ? is that the inference you took from the hadith ?
I have not claimed to be knowledge i m merely a person who is simply aware that there is some knowledge which i need to seek.
In this thread and in others you have gone on and on and on for long about the Mercy of Rasool Allah Sallahu Alahi Wa Aalayhi Wasallam then what do you say of the following. You have argued with the Quran you have tried to understand hadith in your own context but how about this
In the Sunnah, Abu Dawood (2683) narrated that Sa’d ibn Abi Waqqaas said: “On the Day of the Conquest of Makkah, the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) granted safety to the people except for four men and two women, and he named them, and Ibn Abi Sarh… As for Ibn Abi Sarh, he hid with ‘Uthmaan ibn ‘Affaan, and when the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) called the people to give their allegiance to him, he brought him to stand before the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). He said, “O Prophet of Allaah, accept the allegiance of ‘Abd-Allaah.” He raised his head and looked at him three times, refusing him, then he accepted his allegiance after the third time. Then he turned to his companions and said: “Was there not among you any smart man who could have got up and killed this person when he saw me refusing to give him my hand and accept his allegiance?” They said, “We do not know what is in your heart, O Messenger of Allaah. Why did you not gesture to us with your eyes?” He said, “It is not befitting for a Prophet to betray a person with a gesture of his eyes.”
Dont mock my Rasool for something he wasnt. PERIOD.
jaypk
Member
@NNL..Dont mock my Rasool for something he wasnt. PERIOD
...yea i can say the same...would tht make any difference???
you make religion a private property..and you consider prophets MINE and MINE only as well...thn ofcourse i dnt have any right to interfere in your personal matters...unless you want an open debate with an open heart.....and i neva bashed you..so kindly delete tht line..!! :)
NNL
member
yea i can say the same...would tht make any difference???
After all the evidences if you choose believe your own version then i cant stop u can i ?
His Sallaho Alahi Wa Aalayhi Wasallam was in saving you from Hellfire the true torment of both Worlds, mercy was for the believers.
Worship Allah not Islam.
gv
Member
jaypk
Member
@NNL...same to you my friend..
i can say the same..tht after all the evidences i have given if you want to say our holy prophet PBUH was more of a punisher then a healer...thn i cant stop you from following tht cult.....!! .worship Allah SWT only and his original and pure lines...not the twisted and tormented islam which we are follwing today..!
NNL
member
@GV
Mufti Muneeb-ur-Rehman, a prominent cleric, said they were ready to cooperate with authorities to stop extremist groups abusing the law.
“If they bring about change to stop its misuse with our consultation than it's okay,” he said. “But if they did it unilaterally, then it will promote hatred and extremism.”
Yaar i dont see anything wrong with that if someone is abusing the law and targeting specific ppl for their own gain then along with the alteration in the law those ppl should also be punished.
@Jaypk.
Many years ago ppl like you wanted to see the Abu Ibrahim in their own light and perspective and asked him to change to which he had replied.
بِسْمِ اللَّـهِ الرَّحْمَـٰنِ الرَّحِيمِ
قُلْ يَا أَيُّهَا الْكَافِرُونَ ﴿١﴾ لَا أَعْبُدُ مَا تَعْبُدُونَ ﴿٢﴾ وَلَا أَنتُمْ عَابِدُونَ مَا أَعْبُدُ ﴿٣﴾ وَلَا أَنَا عَابِدٌ مَّا عَبَدتُّمْ ﴿٤﴾ وَلَا أَنتُمْ عَابِدُونَ مَا أَعْبُدُ ﴿٥﴾ لَكُمْ دِينُكُمْ وَلِيَ دِينِ ﴿٦﴾
If you study Abu Ibrahim you will know that his mercy was completely and utterly different than what the deviants and the heretics have interpreted and applied.
Sadly you will still choose to see your version and believe that you are not the cult. But we know you will do this for it has been said.
صُمٌّ بُكْمٌ عُمْيٌ فَهُمْ لَا يَعْقِلُونَ
(They are) deaf, dumb and blind. So they do not understand.
And finally
وَمَن يَهْدِ اللَّـهُ فَهُوَ الْمُهْتَدِ ۖ وَمَن يُضْلِلْ فَلَن تَجِدَ لَهُمْ أَوْلِيَاءَ مِن دُونِهِ ۖ وَنَحْشُرُهُمْ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ عَلَىٰ وُجُوهِهِمْ عُمْيًا وَبُكْمًا وَصُمًّا ۖ مَّأْوَاهُمْ جَهَنَّمُ ۖ كُلَّمَا خَبَتْ زِدْنَاهُمْ سَعِيرًا ﴿٩٧﴾
And he whom Allah guides, he is led aright; but he whom He sends astray, for such you will find no Auliya' (helpers and protectors), besides Him, and We shall gather them together on the Day of Resurrection on their faces, blind, dumb and deaf; their abode will be Hell; whenever it abates, We shall increase for them the fierceness of the Fire
hkbajwa
Member
@ NNL
DO you believe the the prophet (pbuh) was a merciful, forgiving and tolerant man??
If so, do you believe that his mercy, forgiveness and tolerance was reserved only for muslims?
NNL
member
Please go thru the posts above and you will find my answer.
I have clearly explained my pov on this topic.
hkbajwa
Member
@ NNL
well what i have gathered from your posts is that you take issue with the way some people percieve the Prophet (pbuh) as a wishy washy liberal softie.
From what i have read in your posts, you consider the Prophet (pbuh) to have the capacity for tolerance yet with a core of steel who did not waver in punishing transgressors.
My personal perception leans towards the former. I believe he was a soft-hearted man, with an unprecedented level of patience with all human beings. His strength came not from being hard on transgressors, but rather by being soft on them. In being soft he provided an example of tolerance and forgiveness which caused the people of arabia to flock around his belief. The only steel was in his core belief and his knowledge that he knew Truth. That gave him resilience and perseverence.. but it did not make him aggressive towards those who disagreed with him.
The thing is that i could never imagine a man with such an unprecedented level of patience to ever feel the need to punish those who spoke against him or his religion. Indeed he never punished the people of Mecca even though they put him through years of abuse and torture.
SO how come "righteous muslims" of today engage in behavior and mete out punishments that he himself never did?
remember that during his time, muslims only took to arms politically. It was never because of their wrong beleifs or because they insulted islam and the Prophet (pbuh). So how can we justify actions that are in no way part of the Sunnat?
NNL
member
ok
Show me where he said no to such punishment.
i will respond to u in detail later.
hkbajwa
Member
@ NNL
From what i understand, the Prophet (pbuh) preached peace and forgiveness all of his life. I believe that his life is full of examples of him refusing to give into violence, preferring instead to show forgiveness.
the biggest exampe i feel is the conquest of Mecca. Even though the meccans had tortured him, denied his belief, denied him the right to spread it and persecuted him for it, he still never punished anybody for it.
Now i believe he could be a warrior when the situation demanded it. But resorting to arms was always the last resort, and done out of necessity rather than anger or the hunt for glory.
jaypk
Member
@NNL...mate..plz dnt categorize me summum bukmun umiyun..!!
its just tht i dont totally antagonize yer point of view..but you totally oppsed my kind hearted islam which is whr my point of objection is...islam is a blend of both..if you agree on tht ..i dnt have any further objections...your honor..!!
NNL
member
Hjbajwa wrote
you consider the Prophet (pbuh) to have the capacity for tolerance yet with a core of steel who did not waver in punishing transgressors.
Thank you for understanding my point.
The rest of your post is your opinion of what you think the person to be not what he was.
am i right ?
You are making an observation of what you may read, heard and understood right ?
What if i tell you that the info based on which you are making your assessment is wrong ?
The Rehmat-ul-Alameen according to you is the most patient, tolerant man didnt allow any personal feelings get to him ? Well the men and women of Banu Qurayza really beg to differ. Or the ppl who were given capital punishment during the advent of Islam.
The concept of Mercy is distorted by many thinking that no no he is very merciful and will again save us on the Day of Judgment however they seem to forget that Allah Azza Wa Jal Has Created Jahanum for a reason. They need to know that reason.
@Jaypk
you can consider your version of religion to be Islam it will not change the fact that Muhammad ibn Abdullah's Revelations were something entirely different.
NNL
member
Jaypk
I m writing a dua now tell me is this a dua of a patient person or a person who has realized his mistake.
"O Allah! I complain to You of my weakness, my scarcity of resources and the humiliation I have been subjected to by the people. O Most Merciful of those who are merciful. O Lord of the weak and my Lord too. To whom have you entrusted me?
To a distant person who receives me with hostility? Or to an enemy to whom you have granted authority over my affair? So long as You are not angry with me, I do not care. Your favor is of a more expansive relief to me. I seek refuge in the light of Your Face by which all darkness is dispelled and every affair of this world and the next is set right, lest Your anger or Your displeasure descends upon me. I desire Your pleasure and satisfaction until You are pleased.
There is no power and no might except by You
jaypk
Member
@NNL...you are repeating yourslef..without listening to what i m sayin...!! is tht how you debate?..
islam is islam...i dont know what versions you are talking about...if you think its all punishment and no leniency...and its jut qahhar and jabbar..and no raheem and kareem...thn fine..its ok...but atleast i will not say..tht YOUr version is wrong..and mine is right...!!
hkbajwa
Member
@ NNL
clearly you think of human beings as little more than animals that cannot learn without the stick or with cruelty.
Somehow you take the Prophet's (pbuh) capacity for violence as a fact. yet i hardly see you provide any evidence of that fact.
the Banu Qurayza?? Oh you mean those who committed treason against the muslim tribes?/
Two things about that. Firstly the punishment of beheading was ordered by the Banu Aws. Since the Banu Qurayza originally had a treaty with the Banu Aws, Mohammad (pbuh) considered it their right to deal with the Banu Qurayza. And even then Mohammad (pbuh) did not consider the harsh punishment to be correct. However the rights of retribution lay with the Banu Aws.
Secondly, the Banu Qurayza suffered a fate that they would have suffered even if they had been muslim. Their crime was not blasphemy or "insulting the Prophet (pbuh)" or anything of that sort. Their crime was breaking a binding treaty. The harsh judgement against was made base don their ACTIONS, and not their religious affiliation ( which is what this whole thread is about)
Also do you really believe that capital punishment became the norm AFTER the advent of Islam??? Seriously?? Are you telling me that the arabian society of the time, where wars were fought all the time, violence was a basic fact of life, female infanticide was a common practice, didn't witness capital punishment until Mohammad (pbuh) came along??
Just because the death sentence was a fact of life in the arabian peninsula, does not mean that it was a preferred solution by the Prophet (pbuh) or in any way an invention that he came up with. he belonged to the society of that time and thus had to pass judgement based on the perception of justice according to his time.
And NONE of the above indicate that he would kill, torture or jail any man who spoke against him or who refused to consider him the Prophet (pbuh). I eblieve he was the type of man who would PRAY for those who went against him rather than punish him.
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