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So called liberals and Islam

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  1. FJ_ Pak
    member

    Dear Yahya

    No one DEMANDED the ban of Veil (I dont want to use the word Niqab or Burqa as bigots in France even conveniently ignore the French word and started using Niqab and Burqa for scare mongering) in France until the Liberal Fascist for their own political agenda and purpose highlighted this issue. As for Turkey is concerned, it is again a small clique of Liberal Fascist who with the help of Guns (The Army) are holding the vast majority of people to ransom for their Liberal Fascist views and attitude.

    I am just pointing out the similarity between the religious zealots and liberal fascist. To me they are the same as they use the same method and approach to force their way of thinking on others.

    The only difference is that religious zealots do not hide what they want to do but Liberals always hide behind things and still wants that they should not be criticised for their hypocracy.

    FJ

    Posted 1 year ago on 20 Mar 2010 13:14 #

  2. Patriot
    Member

    Liberals always hide behind things and still want they should not be criticized of their hypocracy.

    Makes sense to me. Habit of a Christian nun is allowed while Hijab by a Muslim woman is not.....hypocracy!

    Posted 1 year ago on 20 Mar 2010 13:24 #

  3. achtung
    Member

    wantinsaf
    maazrat ke saath arz hei ke pakistan mei liberalism ka har giz ye matlab nahee ke maghrib ko follow kia jae ya unn ke ghulam ban jaeen. ye sab extremist logon ka propaganda hy. liberalism ain islami asoolo ke mutabiq hy. kia aap nahee mantay ke behtareen rasta miana ravi ka hy? mere khial mei aik acha musalman aik liberal insaan hota hy jaisey ke abdul sattar edhi hy.

    doosri baat ye ke aap zabardasti kissi ko majboor nahee kar saktey ke wo kia seekhay ya kia karey. jis mei jo seekhne ya karney ki talab hoti hy wo uss key liye koshish karta rehta hy. mojuda dor mei logo ko khoob pata hy ke unho ne kia karma hy aur kia nahee karna.

    Posted 1 year ago on 20 Mar 2010 13:45 #

  4. Qalma'go
    Member

    To goeya liberalizm ain islam asoolo ke mutabiq hy.
    When Islam accomodates liberty than there is no need for a title transfer as of a Muslim to a Liberal.

    Why you are stressing so much on liberalism that amounts to imposition of your ideologies on Muslims while you yourself say liberal values are in Islam?

    Posted 1 year ago on 20 Mar 2010 13:52 #

  5. achtung
    Member

    naseem
    bhai ye liberals ka khitab mera diya hua to nahee. mei ne kab kaha ke kissi ko liberal ya kutch aur kaha jaey.
    musalman insaan hei aur insaan kaee qisam ke ho sakte hei. kutch miana ravi ki taraf maiil hote hei kutch inteha pasand hotey hei kutch zalim hotey hei kutch mazloom hotey hei kutch aimandar hotey hei kutch beaiman hotey hei waghera wagheera. magar ye sab musalman hote hei. mei kutch bhi impose nahee karma chahta na hee kar sakta hoo. liberalism koi mazhab nahee hy. ye aik rawaya hy.

    Posted 1 year ago on 20 Mar 2010 14:08 #

  6. FJ_ Pak
    member

    Lets see the miana ravi cover taken gets blown up or not by the so called Liberals.

    Do you believe that the hand of the thief should be cut or not

    Do you believe in Qisas or not

    Do you belive in the islamic punishment for the highway robbery

    Dont give me the excuses of the circumstances and the what kind of soceity we are living in bla bla bla. Just even as a conceptual level DO you accept and agree these punishments for the convicted.

    FJ

    Posted 1 year ago on 20 Mar 2010 14:16 #

  7. javedsheikh
    Members

    1. Better to put this question to the learned scholar who initiated this thread:
    'So called liberals and Islam'
    2. Liberals are Muslim and Muslims are Liberal. O.K.
    I appreciate this statement.
    How and where to place those Muslims, who are killing other Muslims in a Muslim State to make them more Muslim?
    3.The expression of one's preferences and choices at the media or an opinion forum is not imposition.
    Every respectable member has a right to reject the preferences and choices of any other member without going personal, angry and annoyed.
    There are hundreds of columnists, writers, talk show hosts and analysts who express and share their views, what could be debated, discussed, rejected or accepted in a civilized gesture.
    4. A person, irrespective of his/her religious affiliation, could be liberal, conservative, radical, reactionary, revolutionary or evolutionary.
    There is nothing to make someone annoyed about his/her DNA.

    Posted 1 year ago on 20 Mar 2010 14:20 #

  8. Qalma'go
    Member

    FG
    I don't thinks they actually agree to the questions you have brought up to them. Because this will expose their double standards.
    How naive of this attempt to link liberalism to Islam. It is nothing but to dilute Islamic values.

    Posted 1 year ago on 20 Mar 2010 14:32 #

  9. achtung
    Member

    farigh jazbati sahib

    aap ke sawaloo ka taaluq mazhab sey hy liberalism sey nahee. liberalism insaano key baham achay taaluqat aur rawaeoon ka naam hy.

    mei musalman hoo. meri koshish hoti hy ke merey rawaye miana ro hoo. jahan tak aap ke sawaloo ka taaluq hy, musalman hotey hue mei innko innkey mutalqa pasmanzar mei sahih sajhta hoo. therefore i accept and agree islamic punishments for the convicted

    ye aur baat hy ke inteha pasand log liberals ko islam se kharij karma chahte hei.

    Posted 1 year ago on 20 Mar 2010 14:49 #

  10. achtung
    Member

    naseem
    islamic values ko dilute wo kar rahey hein jo terrorism ko apna imaan samjhtey hei.

    Posted 1 year ago on 20 Mar 2010 14:54 #

  11. FJ_ Pak
    member

    Janaab Khabardar (Achtung) Sb

    This is my very point, that what is known as Liberalism is nothing to do with islam. Islam has its own standards about everything. Islam condemns the stubborn attitude towards things, islam condemns excessiveness towards everything. Islam teaches and preaches a balanced view towards other people, But these are ALL ISLAMIC VALUES and NOT the liberal values.
    Islam forbids people for taking foreign and alien concepts which has root is kufr and non islam. You can find the evidences in quran and sunnah for that.

    FJ

    Posted 1 year ago on 20 Mar 2010 15:00 #

  12. zia m
    Member

    "My dear Islam is not christianity

    Qad Jaa alhaqqa wa zahaqil baatila, innal baatila kaana zahooqa

    So keep dreaming as there is no ban on dreaming even in Islam ;-)

    FJ"

    Aren't you being less than intellectually honest here?
    I was comparing the orthodoxy,the religious zealots, Taliban and their supporters to the "Dark Ages" in Christianity when the christian zealots ruled the European nations.There are more than 2 billion Christians today maybe twice as many as Muslims.
    Majority of Christians and Muslims are peaceful people.
    It is the religious zealots on both sides who are causing most of the worlds problems.Bush (born again Christian) at the behest of Neo-Conservatives on one side and Taliban and their supporters (orthodox) on the other.

    The very reason Islam spread in the subcontinent is because of Sofia and not due to its orthodoxy.

    It is criminal to put a padlock on the thinking mind.Free thinkers are resposible for the progress of a society.
    Greeks made Socrates drink hemlock but his thoughts and ideas are still very much alive.

    Do you think the murder of Mansoor Al-halajj by religious fanatics was a good idea?

    My friend, mine is not a dream, it is HOPE and it is AlIVE and will live on for the sake of humanity.

    PEACE!

    Posted 1 year ago on 20 Mar 2010 15:42 #

  13. zia m
    Member

    It was Ibn Rushd my great hero who took the Aristotle'S ideas and improved upon them and passed on to the Europeans.
    He was a great thinker and is founder of the secular thought the West is so proud of.We should never forget our history.

    Posted 1 year ago on 20 Mar 2010 15:50 #

  14. Salam
    member

    my dear there was a lot of work done by muslim scholars in the sphere of philosophy between aristotle and ibn rushd, so please don't make huge jumps

    yes, europeans took over from Muslims and then furthered it without citing the sources properly -cheaters-

    tell this to the old man above who is using '1400 year' paint brush to paint black everywhere blindly

    Posted 1 year ago on 20 Mar 2010 16:41 #

  15. LiberalKarachi
    Member

    @wantinsaf,
    "Though you did not use the word ethnic killing and sectarianism,but when you used the words like tolerance in pluralistic society,you obviously meant that.
    "

    "Tolerance" and "pluralistic society" somehow mean "ethnic killing" and "sectarianism" to you? Tolerance means accepting other person's point of view (though u may find it absurd), as long as it is within the bounds of law. Pluralistic society means peaceful cohabitation of multiple cultures, religions, intellectual viewpoints and ideologies. I did not make, or intent to make a comment on ethnic killing and sectarianism, as these are complex issues with only some overlapping with tolerance and pluralism, whilst also overlapping with dozen other concepts. You seem to have grossly generalized my intent. For instance, UK has a liberal society, with tolerance and pluralism, but we saw ethnic killing between English and the Irish until the last decade.

    "What do you have to say about this;
    Hoodbhoy sees veiled students bar to effective communication.
    For more read;
    http://thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=229669
    "

    I dont agree with Hoodbhoy as I think everyone has a right to dress as they see fit (with only very minimum constraints imposed by society - dictated by society itself). If they want to wear burka, I am fine with that, if they want to wear a mini-skirt, I am fine with that too. I don't agree with Hoodhbhoy or Mullahs dictating (or forcing) anyone to dress in a certain way. People have free will and different viewpoints, let them excercise it. Having said that, I have no problem with Hoodbhoy or Mullahs *voicing* their opinion as to their understanding of a good dress sense.

    Posted 1 year ago on 21 Mar 2010 17:31 #

  16. wantinsaf
    Member

    @liberalkarachi
    I am happy that you realized what was wrong with Hoodhbhoy'c comments.
    In Pakistan's case both sectarianism and ethnic killings has got a lot to do with tolerance.Intolerance leading to killings is the worst of its all forms.

    Posted 1 year ago on 22 Mar 2010 5:50 #

  17. Salam
    member

    what is tolerance and what is intolerance, who defines these values? is it john locke or prophet muhammad pbuh?

    Posted 1 year ago on 22 Mar 2010 8:40 #

  18. javedsheikh
    Members

    Of course, Prophet Mohammad PBUH. the greatest champion of Tolerance and accommodation.
    *************
    Some learned member mentioned that Liberals are confused and sailing in two boats.
    Here is the Litmus Test.
    Liberals are united that Suicide Bombing is Haram, where the Conservatives are sharply divided and confused on this issue.
    For one section it is Halal for other it is Haram.
    Who is confused?

    Posted 1 year ago on 22 Mar 2010 9:22 #

  19. Salam
    member

    good that we agree on who defines what is good and what is bad, so why not we look up to the same benchmark to evaluate the repeatedly posted question?

    Posted 1 year ago on 22 Mar 2010 9:34 #

  20. wantinsaf
    Member

    @JavaidSheikh
    Liberalism is about liberty and it doesn't care about boundaries set by religion and culture.
    Islam has set many boundaries and liberals(who claim to be Muslims) don't care about these boundaries.For instance,polygamy is not liked by liberals whereas Islam has allowed it under certain conditions.Observing 'pardah ' is advocated by religion while dogmatic liberals speak against it.
    Which Muslim has ever said that suicide bombing is halal?
    What I have listened is Zakir Nayak,Ghamidi,Tahir Ul Qadri and Dr Israr have always condemned suicide bombings.

    All those who advocate liberalism in Pakistan(who have liberalism as only agenda) are used to drinking,nightclubbing,dancing and consensual sex.

    Posted 1 year ago on 22 Mar 2010 10:09 #

  21. Salam
    member

    wantinsaf

    you have exposed the secret hypocrisy of liberals very well-

    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Mar 2010 7:51 #

  22. sasherwani
    Members

    Wantinsaf,

    Can you please provide a reference for this claim of yours:

    All those who advocate liberalism in Pakistan(who have liberalism as only agenda) are used to drinking,nightclubbing,dancing and consensual sex.

    Any kind of valid reference will do.

    Also I still wait for the references for your following claims...

    1. liberals in Pakistan have always claimed to be good Muslim
    2. 99% of these liberals are rich enough to perform HUJJ
    3. but they don't
    4. None of them is familiar with Arabic,
    5. liberals don't advocate in West that they are even Muslims
    6. they rather promote themselves by using words like liberals and seculars
    7. Those who go to Mosque five times a day don't have any love for partying and drinking unlike liberals.

    Thanks..

    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Mar 2010 7:58 #

  23. Salam
    member

    the reference is inside the definition of word 'liberal' as defined by the practices and philosophies of europe-

    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Mar 2010 8:19 #

  24. sasherwani
    Members

    There's a fine line between 'analyzing' someone or making someone a victim of your "targeted judgemental stereotypical behaviors".

    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Mar 2010 11:06 #

  25. Salam
    member

    Ouchhh... sorry my dear, didn't mean to hurt you :)

    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Mar 2010 11:10 #

  26. javedsheikh
    Members

    * Liberalism emerges from reason.
    Conservatism Emerges from arrogance

    * Liberalism is open to choices
    Conservatism limits the natural human desires

    * Liberalism welcomes change for better
    Conservatism forces towards the Status Qua

    * Frog in the well is conservative
    Eagle in the sky is liberal

    * Liberalism guides you towards a Super Store
    Conservatism Keeps you shopping in the Thrift Store.

    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Mar 2010 11:35 #

  27. Musician
    Member

    Can one be a liberal conservative?

    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Mar 2010 11:38 #

  28. Salam
    member

    these terms can only be meaningful if referred to the value system from where they emanate or else one can just swap them around still mean nothing -lolzz

    for example :)

    * Conservatism emerges from reason.
    Liberalism Emerges from arrogance

    * Conservatism is open to choices
    Liberalism limits the natural human desires

    * Conservatism welcomes change for better
    Liberalism forces towards the Status Qua

    * Frog in the well is liberal
    Eagle in the sky is conservative

    * Conservatism guides you towards a Super Store
    Liberalism Keeps you shopping in the Thrift Store.

    enjoy :)

    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Mar 2010 11:45 #

  29. javedsheikh
    Members

    Dear Musician,
    Why not.
    A liberal is open to all sort of directions.
    Liberalism is a combination and blend of Past, Present and Future.
    Liberalism is like pushing the past towards shinning future utilizing the present.
    Conservatism is,
    baithe rahen tassawar-e-jannan kye hooye

    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Mar 2010 11:51 #

  30. Salam
    member

    lolzz..

    definition na kar sakay to ignore karnay kee patli gali pakar lee :)

    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Mar 2010 11:57 #

  31. Musician
    Member

    Javed Sahib
    It would appear that I am a conservative becasue
    jab "Baithe hein hum tassawar-e-Jannan kye hooye" toe kis kambakhat ka uthnay ko dil chahta hai.

    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Mar 2010 11:59 #

  32. javedsheikh
    Members

    Dear Musician,
    You got the point.
    As I mentioned that a liberal feels free to exercise all the instincts of biological human nature.

    A Liberal can be liberal with the spouse, but conservative with children.

    A liberal can be conservative at choices on Art, poetry, literature and Music, but liberal about practical life.

    Josh Maleeabadi, in his autobiography 'Yaddon Ki Barat' defines what is liberalism.

    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Mar 2010 12:10 #

  33. Salam
    member

    lolzz @a liberal feels free to exercise all the instincts of biological nature.

    that fits best on animals :)

    human controls his instincts per certain code and order of society-

    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Mar 2010 12:13 #

  34. javedsheikh
    Members

    meri tasbeeh rahe mera lota rahe
    mera TV rahe mera baja rahe

    kaleesa hai peeche tau phir kya hooa
    mere samne mera kaaba rahe

    ho mandar men moorat ya masjid ka mimber
    mere dil men bas mera maula rahe

    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Mar 2010 12:26 #

  35. Salam
    member

    nice googlee.. well done JS :)

    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Mar 2010 12:27 #

  36. barackosama
    Member

    @SufiSoul
    "Iqbal is nothing to re-explain islam to make it acceptable for the west......"

    So do Sufis have no authority to develop new ways to man's relationship to Allah after Islam has been revealed and completed for the last born man to follow.

    Sufism itself is a form of liberalism. It is completely unorthodox to Islam, something that did not exist during the time of the Prophet SAW, the Rashidoon Caliphs, the Tabeen or the Tabe-Tabeen. So much for the new ways to reach out to Allah, the ways never preached or practised by the Prophet SAW or by his immediate followers. Ashab-e-sufa specialized in learning Islam but Sufis specialize in رقص سماع or Islamized yoga. Sufism is liberalism in social context but innovation in religious setting. For the Sufis, the biggest one should have been the one who has more intertaction with Allah, who could be that but the Prophet SAW himself, apparently the Sufi followers do not call the Prophet SAW or Abu Bakr RA a Sufi.

    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Mar 2010 14:34 #

  37. achtung
    Member

    wantinsaf
    bhai agar aap bura na maney to aap ka mandara zail jumla ghalat bhi hy aur HATE COMMENT ke zumrey mei bhi aata hy. yeh to aisey hi hy ke koi bewaqoof keh dey ke tamam molvi type log child molester hotey hei.

    All those who advocate liberalism in Pakistan(who have liberalism as only agenda) are used to drinking,nightclubbing,dancing and consensual sex

    aap ne tamam samajhdar miana ro Pakistani musalmano ko ruswa karney ki koshish ki hy. kia aap inteha pasandi ko hi islam samajhtey hei?

    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Mar 2010 15:07 #

  38. Salam
    member

    lolzz

    i like achutng's new definition of liberal "tamam samajhdar miana ro Pakistani musalmaan"

    abb to liberal bhi liberal naa rahay... :)

    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Mar 2010 15:39 #

  39. wantinsaf
    Member

    @Achtung
    Pakistan mai liberalism ka advocater kaun hai?can you please name so I can answer you accordingly?
    As far as 'miana rawi' is concerned,liberty might show it but infact it has nothing to do with liberalism.It's nice to be moderate but it is more important to accpet Islam as truth and follow it rather than taking something else from 'west'.
    why liberals don't advocate 'perhezgari' which is the only crtiteria for judging which one of us is better?This is what God says 'All Muslims are equal to me but the better one is who is more perhezgar'.

    Posted 1 year ago on 24 Mar 2010 8:32 #

  40. achtung
    Member

    wantinsaf
    bhai mujhay nahi pata pakistan mei liberalism ka advocator kon hy. aap mujhay baata dein. barai meherbani yeh bhi baatain ke pakistan mei perhezgar log aap ne kahan per deekhay hei aur unki percentage kia hogi? aur yeh west ko herr baat mei dakheel karma kia farz hy?
    mei samajhta hoo ke aik libera shakhs hi miana ro ho sakta hy.

    Posted 1 year ago on 24 Mar 2010 9:35 #

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