So called liberals and Islam

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So called liberals and Islam

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LiberalKarachi
Member

@wantinsaf,

I read ur post directed to @LiberalKarachi. I agree with all you have said about eradicating Ethno-nationalism and sectarism. But what on earth has that got to do with what I was saying or even liberalism? There is no relation between how liberal u are and how much of a bigot u r in term of ethnicity or religion. In fact, liberals tend to be arguably less fanatic about their religion and ethnicity, because of inherent tolerance, exposure to diversity and pluralism they have. I don't even think we need to restrict ourselves to Pakistani to promote tolerance in Pakistan. Marketing ourselves as human beings and living things should be sufficient.

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2010 21:15 #
wantinsaf
Member

@LiberalKarachi
You in your previous post suggested so called liberalism solution to target killings and sectarian voilence.And I on the other suggested what you have read solution to above mentioned problem.
Solution to Pakistan's problem lie in following what we should stand rather than following an alien concept.

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Mar 2010 5:30 #
wantinsaf
Member

An excellent read for all of us:
http://thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=229506

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Mar 2010 5:33 #
wantinsaf
Member

Look at what an anti Islam and anti Pakistan element has got to say to this nation.
Hoodbhoy sees veiled students bar to effective communication.
For more read;
http://thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=229669
I came up with this thread 5 days ago and mentioned Hoodhboy as anti Islam.And now history proves me right!

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Mar 2010 8:02 #
Salam
member

he is openly known for his such views and he sells well in the west for aligning himself with their value system

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Mar 2010 8:15 #
LiberalKarachi
Member

@ wantinsaf,

i think you need to re-read what i posted, and perhaps more carefully this time. I did not make a mention of target killing or sectarian violence. I simply described the properties or a theoretical nature of liberalism. I know liberalism alone cannot be an answer to target killing of course.

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Mar 2010 19:09 #
wantinsaf
Member

@LiberalKarachi
Though you did not use the word ethnic killing and sectarianism,but when you used the words like tolerance in pluralistic society,you obviously meant that.
As I have written many times,there is nothing wrong with the word 'liberal',but the problem lies in its use.And I have termed the use,infact miuse of liberalism as bad.
What do you have to say about this;
Hoodbhoy sees veiled students bar to effective communication.
For more read;
http://thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=229669

Posted 1 year ago on 19 Mar 2010 9:50 #
Anonymous

@wantinsaf

Every one has his own point of view if Hoodbhoy is saying such a thing then he must have got explanation for that as well...He also explained his point of view....

""Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy replied that exceptions could be there but he was worried of this growing trend as he knew some teachers at the university level who were openly advising that those female students were not allowed to enter their classrooms who did not observe Burqa.""

So why dont we discuss that point as well why only chosen a controversial point to discuss???

Posted 1 year ago on 19 Mar 2010 12:15 #
javedsheikh
Members

As mentioned by Dr. Javed Iqbal, Allama Iqbal was,

1. A strong proponent of Tajdeedi Islam against Taqleedi Islam.
2. He strongly supported for a new definition of Islamic Sharia to make it acceptable and practicable for society.

It looks very wise, rational and appealing approach.

Posted 1 year ago on 19 Mar 2010 12:37 #
SufiSoul
Member

Iqbal is nothing to re-explain islam to make it acceptable for the west......
Javaid Iqbal jaisa bewaqoof baita sari umer inferiority complex me raha hy apny Baap k waja se..
So we are expecting the same awl fool from Javaid Iqbal.....

Posted 1 year ago on 19 Mar 2010 12:52 #
wantinsaf
Member

@YAHYA
Everyone has got opinion that doesn't mean he/she is always right or even ever right.
So far,there has been no incident reported that students have been forced to wear burqa at QU.In which court any incident has been reported of this nature?This is about Quaid e Azam University.
Don't forget Hoodhboy has never admitted Blackwater is in Pakistan.Does that mean his opinion was right?
There have been serious allegations against him but he has never defended and hit back at those who accused him of having links with CIA.

Posted 1 year ago on 19 Mar 2010 13:00 #
javedsheikh
Members

It is Allama Iqbal who was,
"1. A strong proponent of Tajdeedi Islam against Taqleedi Islam.
2. Allama Iqbal strongly supported for a new definition of Islamic Sharia to make it acceptable and practicable for society."

(We are not discussing Dr. Javed Iqbal. Javed Iqbal quoted what Allam Iqbal proposed and should not be blamed for that.)

It was in 1923 where Allama Iqbal proposed for a new definition of Islamic Sharia.
It is the job of Muslim Scholars and Jurists to perform Ijtehad, and Consensus of Opinion about a suitable definition of Mutshbihats.

Otherwise the Muslim World would keep on debating, discussing, fighting and waiting for another 1400 years to establish the desired Islamic System of Governance.

Posted 1 year ago on 19 Mar 2010 13:07 #
FJ_ Pak
member

Dear JS Sb and other

I would invite you guys for your comments here

http://pkpolitics.com/discuss/topic/islam-important-issue-related-to-ijtehad-and-difference-of-opinion

FJ

Posted 1 year ago on 19 Mar 2010 13:11 #
Salam
member

FJ

It is a good thread, but requires a lot of study and work because it is an area that never got shine by default values-

JS sb,

I disagree with the statement that Iqbal proposed a new definition of shariat in 1923, he admits lack of knowledge in shariat in his work "The Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam", anyway it is another discussion so will keep it for some other time.

Posted 1 year ago on 19 Mar 2010 13:41 #
javedsheikh
Members

* The justification of a women to be elected as Head of the Islamic State
(Maulana Maudoodi and Mohtarma Fatima jinnah),

* Acceptance of photography, Film and Video Technology by all of the orthodox religious scholars.

* Adoption of deep impact of cultural innovations, economic system and international diplomatic protocols.

Is all such activities not a step towards redefining the Sharia?

The hurdle and obstacle is being caused only by the arrogance of a section of fundamentalists who are reluctant to endorse and formulate these realities into Law.

Without redefining the Shariat, the Muslim world would stay isolated.

Posted 1 year ago on 19 Mar 2010 14:14 #
Salam
member

sheikh sb,

so political alignment of maulana maudoodi with fatima jinnah against a general is redefining sharia? what is your definition of this newly invented term plz?

or how is acceptance of some new tools termed as new definition of sharia?

real hurdle and obstacle is in confusion where one is neither able to accept islam wholeheartedly nor reject completely -stuck in the middle is causing the decline-

Posted 1 year ago on 19 Mar 2010 14:22 #
tamaazkhan
Member

Forget isolation, without this progress we will remain hostage to the agenda of those who opt to use Islam for control and power.

Posted 1 year ago on 19 Mar 2010 14:23 #
Anonymous

@wantinsaf

Even if such incident happened in QU would QU administration report that or solve it within QU???If such incident are not reported then it doesnt mean that such incident never happened and as Hoodbhoy is a professor of QU and he also got know how in HEC so his credibility is also their in education circle....and about his views on Blackwater then I would say he is not a think tank or a man of agency so his views regarding Blackwater are based on his own not based on concrete evidence because he has nothing to do with politics or national defense but he is a educationist so he have credibility in education field not in defense and security...

Posted 1 year ago on 19 Mar 2010 14:31 #
javedsheikh
Members

For the last 1400 years the attempts have been made with full intellectual force by thousands of prominent scholars to kick start but the train is sitting still at the Platform.

Discussion, debates, fights, Fatwas, attacks, attempts, arrogance and anger is creating more and more frustration, confusion, differences, groupings and chaos.

The only solution.
A redifinition of Shariat through Ijtehad to make harmless adjustments to satisfy the needs of modern humanity.

Believe it or not.
Sooner or later the rational scholars of the Muslim World would have to accept and acknowledge this reality.

Posted 1 year ago on 19 Mar 2010 14:35 #
Salam
member

my dear your reference to 1400 years tells about your thinking and understanding of islam -quite sad

please study john locke's 'a letter concerning tolerance' and then study ibn rushd's work on philosophy and religion to comprehend the level of intellect of muslims-

you are good in shar-o-naghma, please don't bother on this :)

Posted 1 year ago on 19 Mar 2010 14:46 #
UmeR
Member

Just wanted to say:

Badle gha zamana lakh magar
Qur'an na badla jaye gha

Posted 1 year ago on 19 Mar 2010 14:50 #
Salam
member

wah wa Umer mian...

here is it in the voice of aziz mian :)

Posted 1 year ago on 19 Mar 2010 14:53 #
javedsheikh
Members

please study john locke's 'a letter concerning tolerance' and then study ibn rushd's work on philosophy and religion to comprehend the level of intellect of muslims-

Dear sir,
I have already gone through all these scholars from 1962-64.
I guess the supporters of orthodox schools, who don't have courage to oppose suicide bombing and innocent killings, need to read, understand, follow and act upon the teachings of Ibn-e-Rushd, Ghazali and Abu Rabbi.

Posted 1 year ago on 19 Mar 2010 15:30 #
Salam
member

my dear, had you gone through those heavy weight doses you wouldn't be using 1400 brush to paint black on the whole page

i need to feel the experience of study from your posts, not claims -plz

Posted 1 year ago on 19 Mar 2010 15:33 #
javedsheikh
Members

This debate would go very touchy and sharp, if some of the historical realities are disclosed with reference to the context and ultimately the thread would forced to be closed and the administration might put a ban on my postings.

I am fully convinced that nothing is going to come out to change a mind set, how impressive, informative and argumentative discussion could be conducted on religion.
I got my mind set after passing through different phases of
experiences and experiments and feel quite satisfied and comfortable at the present position.
I don't want to disturb my peace of mind.
Religious debates, mostly, are conducted and initiated to satisfy the instinct to express hate and anger.
It is a process of habitual teasing of an individual by another individual and less likely to learn or achieve a consensus.

Not only 1400 years, I am in a position to discuss the events before the advent of Holy Christ and Holy Moses.

But such discussion could be mere wastage of time, where humanity is facing some other problems needed to be solved urgently.

Posted 1 year ago on 19 Mar 2010 17:09 #
Patriot
Member

This is for you js...

I am fully convinced that nothing is going to come out to change a mind set, how impressive, informative and argumentative discussion could be conducted on religion.

Do you still think religion is your domain?

I got my mind set after passing through different phases of experiences and experiments and feel quite satisfied and comfortable at the present position.

Who cares?

I don't want to disturb my peace of mind.
Kindly don’t bother to disturb other’s peace of mind then.

So should you by not polluting others peace of mind.

Religious debates, mostly, are conducted and initiated to satisfy the instinct to express hate and anger. It is a process of habitual teasing of an individual by another individual and less likely to learn or achieve a consensus.

Exactly what you say above you have been doing yourself. Go back through your own posts and you will come to know if you want to.

Not only 1400 years, I am in a position to discuss the events before the advent of Holy Christ and Holy Moses.

That is a bluff. A tall claim.

But such discussion could be mere wastage of time, where humanity is facing some other problems needed to be solved urgently.

And solution you never have except negative criticism.

This is what we think about you by reading through your posts.

Posted 1 year ago on 19 Mar 2010 17:24 #
javedsheikh
Members

Some medicines take time to effect the body, mind and soul.

Who knows you might be at the same position after a few more experiences, where I am now.

My glass was half full in 50's, but gradually got empty due to dry and hot climate.

It is hard for me to yield before emotional fanaticism.

God bless you at the position you are holding.

Posted 1 year ago on 19 Mar 2010 17:39 #
S.E.Mirza
Moderator

@SufiSoul
Iqbal is nothing to re-explain islam to make it acceptable for the west.

A very wise comment indeed.

Posted 1 year ago on 19 Mar 2010 17:43 #
javedsheikh
Members

Even Sir Syed Ahmad Khan and the founder of Pakistan, Mohammad Ali Jinnah, held and endorsed the same point of view.
Whom should we listen?

Posted 1 year ago on 19 Mar 2010 17:50 #
Patriot
Member

Hats off SufiSoul. Not just Iqbal but anybody who attempts to re-explain Islam instead of explaining it...

Posted 1 year ago on 19 Mar 2010 17:57 #
FJ_ Pak
member

This is my firm believe that in pakistan (or pakistani background people) who claim to be so called liberals are the most confused bunch in the entire history of mankind.

As they have adopted an idea which has no roots in the soceity the belong, no history of that idea in their culture, no proof in their religion (they may hate islam but at the end of the day they can not eliminate it from their lives and sorroundings), they may bring examples to prove the idea but all of these examples are from foreign cultures and value system which all the time is at odd with the value system they live in 24/7/365.

They always going from piller to post in a wane hope that what they believe may be proved from within islam. They always Wish that it could have some , little, minute seal of approval from the value system they live in. Like a orphan looking for a father figure, going place to place that someone may have a mercy and provide the shelter, give him a recognition but Alas when comes to islam and the value system which emanates from islam, the culture, the philoshy, the history, the thoughts, concepts, intellectual heritage all of it completely rejects this rotten foreign, alien concept of liberlism. As Allah swt says, we bring truth to falsehood and it smashes its brain.

So my sincere advice to all those confused "pakistani liberals" is that stop chasing a illusion, stop following a mirage. I know you are yearning for recognition, looking for some attention, look the solutions within the islamic parameters, dont view islam with a inspiration from non islam.

FJ

Posted 1 year ago on 19 Mar 2010 18:11 #
javedsheikh
Members

I am Liberal because my creative is also liberal.

Otherwise there would have been only one religion only on the Globe.
He created 124000 messengers with a variety of programs.

Posted 1 year ago on 19 Mar 2010 18:20 #
FJ_ Pak
member

Dear Muhtaram JS

Allah swt created ONLY One religion called ISLAM. It may have had different names at different time but the concept and teachings of that religion never changed.

Thats why in Quran Allah swt asks the jews and the christians that where did you get your name (i.e jews and christians) as I (Allah swt) never gave you this name. And Allah swt while mentioning the prophets always mentioned that they were MUSLIMS.

Any proof of you claim that Allah swt created more than one religions.

FJ

Posted 1 year ago on 19 Mar 2010 18:30 #
Patriot
Member

They are in fact the most confused bunch. Just tell them to come to Pakistan (anywhere in Pakistan) and admit openly what they commit on line. I don't think so they have courage to come and campaign their ideologies in Pakistan.

Posted 1 year ago on 19 Mar 2010 18:31 #
Patriot
Member

Not only 1400 years, I am in a position to discuss the events before the advent of Holy Christ and Holy Moses.

That is his claim.

Posted 1 year ago on 19 Mar 2010 18:32 #
FJ_ Pak
member

Lagta hai Pakistani Liberals meri baat ko kuch ziyadah hi dil pe le gai hain

Posted 1 year ago on 19 Mar 2010 19:10 #
SufiSoul
Member

I am unable to understand why muslim people go for personalities rather than actual teachings of ISLAM,

1.Quaid-e-Azam
2.Allama Iqbal
3.SIR Syed Ahmad Khan
.
.
.
.
These amy have been specialised in any field of life but they are not at that level to follow them completly in ISLAMIC rulings..
When it comes to ISLAM than we have different ones to follow and understand ISLAM..
WHen we have QURAN AND SUNNAH we dont need anything more to follow.
This is very basic concept in ISLAM..
Allama IQBAL is having the same conceptual framework like ISLAM but look at the people presenting him as someone to re-explain Islam..
For example if Allama says anything going against qURAN AND sUNNAH WE ARE NOT BOUND TO FOLLOW HIM...
Allama Iqbal as a poet sometimes goes beyond the line and have wish for a Mujtahid to settle disputes BUT it is not a compulsion to must rise with any Personality as a MUJTAHID,cuz Iqbal wished it......

The DOOR FOR IJTIHAD IS CLOSED DELIBRATLY DESPITE THE WISH OF ALLAMA IQBAL,QUAIDE AZAM,SIR SYED,OR ANY ONE...
NOW WE CANNOT BAN THESE PERSONALITIES IMAGINATION....

Posted 1 year ago on 19 Mar 2010 20:52 #
Salam
member

JS sb,

I see you ignored the questions and ignored the course of discussion that I put forward, but its okay.

Regarding your repeated reference to your age, my believe is that number of years make one man old but not necessarily wise so your repeated reference to age may prove you are an old man but your output here suggests that it lacks in depth clarity on the area that we are deliberating here.

You continue to paint Muslims with dark paint but when probed a little then you start looking for exit strategy.

Plz either stop painting Muslims with dark paint or be ready to defend your position.

If you think what you are writing is a touchy or emotional or sensitive or etc subject then please don't post what you are afraid to own.

If you do get chance then please answer my questions above as I have seen these same posts from you before too-

Posted 1 year ago on 20 Mar 2010 2:08 #
Salam
member

Patriot, FJ, & SufiSoul

you guys are discussing with a person who is neither willing to own what he believes nor willing to reject what he thinks

like FJ said liberal/seculars are stuck in the middle and have become hypocrrite due to social pressure arising from Muslim dominating society

Posted 1 year ago on 20 Mar 2010 2:14 #
zia m
Member

"like FJ said liberal/seculars are stuck in the middle and have become hypocrrite due to social pressure arising from Muslim dominating society "

That is nothing to celebrate or feel proud of, so called "moral majority trying to ostercize the minority view.This reminds me of Christian "Dark Ages" who tortured and persecuted the "heretics". in the name of their religion.I can only hope that our religious zealots will have the same fate as the Christian Orthodoxy.

"Justice is the only worship.
Love is the only priest.
Ignorance is the only slavery
The way to be happy is to make others so"

Posted 1 year ago on 20 Mar 2010 4:35 #
javedsheikh
Members

Most of the postings are off the track and just expression of personal hatred.
Still I respect their point of view and the level of wisdom.

There is nothing convincing to make me change the position from liberal to Orthodox or conservative.

I like the statement that Liberals are stuck in the middle. This is one of the best definitions of a Liberal.
They are also known as Centralists.

I am not sure where the conservatism is stuck up, at the Front or at the Tail?

Posted 1 year ago on 20 Mar 2010 4:55 #
wantinsaf
Member

@Yahya
It seems you know very little about Hoodhbhoy.He writes for newspaper like Dawn and has written many articles about war against terror.He has also appeared on many tv shows portraying himslef as an expert of defence studies.
If administration of QU is responsible for handling these issues,so why he expressed his opinion to 'The News' correspondent.The fact is Hoodhbhoy has been compaigning against Islam since last couple of years.

Posted 1 year ago on 20 Mar 2010 6:52 #
wantinsaf
Member

@JavaidSheikh
Please human beings have not been sent to this earth to show their conservativeness and liberty.

Which category would you put Hazrat Umer?
Which category would you put Tipu Sultan?
Which category would you put Al Beiruni?

Muslims are not supposed to follow what west comes up with these nonsense like conservatism and liberalism.Muslims are liberals as they are born with liberty to choose between right and wrong.They are conservatives as their religion has clearly defined boundaries.
What do you think a person who does not party is conservative or liberal?

Posted 1 year ago on 20 Mar 2010 6:57 #
FJ_ Pak
member

@ziam

"I can only hope that our religious zealots will have the same fate as the Christian Orthodoxy"

Hazaaroon Khawahishein aisi keh har Khawahish pe dam niklay
Buht nikle meray armaan mager phir bhi kam niklay

My dear Islam is not christianity

Qad Jaa alhaqqa wa zahaqil baatila, innal baatila kaana zahooqa

So keep dreaming as there is no ban on dreaming even in Islam ;-)

FJ

Posted 1 year ago on 20 Mar 2010 7:57 #
Anonymous

@wantinsaf

I know about this Hoodbhoy as he frequently called by Hamid mir in his program as a guest....and I also know that Imran Khan dont like him because of his views very different....and about news paper dawn news paper the founder of that news paper is Quaid-e-Azam and in terms of stories they have more credibility then any other media in Pakistan...He have his concerns because he believe that its happening in Pakistan even if admin is trying to solve it internally but still even this mindset is a problem that a female is not allowed to attend classes if she dont wear burqa so he is identifying this expect in our Universities and instead of looking it as a propaganda this issue should be investigated because a person who is speaking has got credibility in that field...

Posted 1 year ago on 20 Mar 2010 9:40 #
FJ_ Pak
member

One thing is really amazing that this Hoodbhy is concerned that women who are not covering are not allowed to attend classess

But

He never raised his concern when Liberal Fascist in France did the same by NOT allowing the women who wanted to attend classes by covering themselves.

What a hypocracy of these so called Liberals.

FJ

Posted 1 year ago on 20 Mar 2010 9:59 #
Salam
member

liberals of pakistan are unowned children of lord macaulay who are still trying to find a house to plant their roots :)

Posted 1 year ago on 20 Mar 2010 10:43 #
Anonymous

@Faarigh Jazbati

Its France and this law even applied in Turkey as well....so what would we call that???In France people have problem with Burqa and they demanded its ban as people have demanded so they banned it but in Pakistan their is no such problem exist or any demand of imposing Burqa even exist then why it should be forced in Pakistan...

Posted 1 year ago on 20 Mar 2010 10:50 #
achtung
Member

wantinsaf
aap ketey ho 99% liberal muslims ameer hei, magar hajj nahee kartey. awwal ye ke aap ki baat ghalat hy. agar aap ki baat sahi bhi hy to aap unko zabardasti hajj karney par majboor nahee kar sakteuy. unho ne apne allah ko iss ka jawab dena hai aap ne nahee.

aap kehte ho ke kion ke wo arabic sey nabalad hei iss liye islam ko nahee samajh saktey. iss ka yeh matlab hy keh wo log jin ki maadri zaban arabic hy aur jo nasal dar nasal saudia mei abaad hy wo islam ko behtreen tor per samajh saktey hy. phir ham baqi dunya mei unn sey iktalaf kio kartey hy? ham ney apney naey naey firqay kio banaey hy.

islam miana ravi ka sabaq deyta hei jiss ko liberal hona kaha jata hei. agar musalman apney aap ko liberal kehlana pasand kartey hei to iss mei konsi qabahat hai. masiwaey muthi bhar extremist aur terrorist musalmano key baqi sab liberals hy. yahan koi anti islam campaign nahee chala raha na chala sakta hy. haa ye zaroor hy ke log apni siyasat chamkaney key liye islam ka naam misuse kartey rahey hei aur kar rahe hei.

Posted 1 year ago on 20 Mar 2010 11:34 #
wantinsaf
Member

@Achtung
I just raised a point asking question 'why don't they perform Hajj despite being wealthy'.You must differentiate between forcing someone or asking question to someone.
As far as Arabic is concerned,if we common Muslims don't learn Arabic to understand Islam that means we are leaving Islam on a portion of society who has command over both language and Quran which eventually would make them 'jageerdar of religion'.And exactly this is where we Muslims went wrong and we left religion on Mullas.
So called liberals all over the world have same mind set whichever religion they belong to.In Pakistan,liberalism is all about following west and becoming their servants evetually.

Posted 1 year ago on 20 Mar 2010 13:13 #