So called liberals and Islam

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So called liberals and Islam

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FJ_ Pak
member

ziam

i donot subscribe to the notion of being a liberal person so unable to provide my definition for something I do not believe in.

FJ

Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 20:05 #
zia m
Member

FJ
If one has no idea or definition of a concept how can one be agains it is beyond me.
I think you can still appreciate the quote..No?

Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 20:19 #
barackosama
Member

@Naseem
"Democracy a greek concept adopted by the christian west is a tool to keep state and religion apart .."

Indeed the notion of separation of church and state itself is an invention of a liberal Muslim schoolman, Muhammad bin Walid Ibn Rushd better known as Averroes. So our heretic maverick taught the Xtians of already corrupt faith to further distant themselves in their sickness of religion. Now we import the much sweetened phenomenon.

One thing is for sure, today all parties in Pakistan regardless of their ideological affiliation at the minimum subscribe to the unorthodox Islamic ideas such as a boundaried country, nationalism and democracy. If these heads were to sit together to come up with a counter pro Islamic system, they will immediately fall apart as they do in matters of fiqh.

The long and short of it, Pakistanis would like to hold on the ideals of Islam, but are shy of going about and enforcing them either on collective or individual level. That's a pretty far fetched goal, I say to let go our intrinsic liberalism, we all have some of it in some aspect.

Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 20:30 #
Anonymous

Looks to me that this thread is response of Imran Khan running election campaign for his former brother in law of conservative party who are considered as anti immigration of Pakistanis and other Asian in England.....

As far as I am concern I think liberalism is a part of society not part of mindset....Their are more liberals in Karachi then any other city of Pakistan because every single day a person interact with a person who belongs to different culture and speak different languages and in order to deal with them a Karachiite need to understand different culture and also tolerate few things so this understanding has made most Karachiite liberal while in Punjab and NWFP we dont see such mix of different culture the way we see it in Karachi and especially in NWFP where except few places even existence of non pashtun is very rare so their understanding level couldnt able to develop so that is why they are mostly conservative...

Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 21:17 #
barackosama
Member

Islamabad and Lahore are more liberal compared to Karachi, thanks to the presence of foreign embassies and govt. ministeries in Islamabad and vibrant red light area and Lollywood in Lahore. In fact in almost all Punjab where ever they have vans, men and women can sit next to each other.

Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 21:32 #
Anonymous

@barackosama

No doubt Lahore and Islamabad are more liberal then Karachi but despite of that they support conservative because they are crossing the same phase which Karachiite were crossing back in 90s when Karachiite despite of being having liberal mindset support conservative JI but latter changed due to emergence of MQM....I think same history will repeat in Punjab in the future as we see some liberal party start their operation at a grass root level things will change in the same way like in Karachi back in 80s

Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 22:15 #
LiberalKarachi
Member

It seems you don't even know what liberalism actually is. Being liberal has nothing to do with what you eat or wear. It is to do with your MENTALITY and your state of mind. It deals with how open-minded you are about letting people continue with their (seemingly absurd) ideas as long as they are within the bounds of law and legal norms. Its to do with tolerance and pluralism, and acceptance thereof, and countering the forces (whether they be taliban or government) who by force endanger these concepts.

It does not deal with supporting or countering religion. You can be the most religious person and still be the most liberal at the same time. Conversely, you can literally be a prostitute and still be the most un-liberal person out there.

Liberalism grows out of pluralistic societies and has stems in tolerance, unsurprisingly we find liberalism in such societies. For example, because Karachi is extremely diverse in terms of ethnicity, culture and intellectual thought process, it is also more liberal than any other city of Pakistan.

Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 23:50 #
sasherwani
Members

@ wantinsaf,

I still await the response for your following generalizations:

1. liberals in Pakistan have always claimed to be good Muslim
2. 99% of these liberals are rich enough to perform HUJJ
3. but they don't
4. None of them is familiar with Arabic,
5. liberals don't advocate in West that they are even Muslims
6. they rather promote themselves by using words like liberals and seculars
7. Those who go to Mosque five times a day don't have any love for partying and drinking unlike liberals

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2010 5:02 #
wantinsaf
Member

Some people here are mixing liberals with so called liberals.I don't have any problem with the word 'liberal' but I do have problem when you love misusing liberalism for your personal gains.Liberalism as term is very nice like Taliban but the issue lies in use of it in such a way that difference between right and wrong stops coming from Islam.To Muslims difference between right and wrong comes from Quran and Holy Prophet but here in Pakistan these so called liberals have different approach and ideas to sort out issues and differntiate right and wrong.

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2010 6:36 #
wantinsaf
Member

@sasherwani
1-I have mentioned few names in my second comment check them out and these are the people who are afraid to show their true identity for their personal gains.
2-All the people I mentioned are rich enough but practicing Islam is not their cup of tea.
3.Are they familiar with Arabic?
The remaining points need not be responded as you had better use your mind.

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2010 6:40 #
wantinsaf
Member

We all are quite familiar with liberal and liberalism.
So called liberals are those who are using liberalism for their personal gains.All the politicians I mentioned have been found involved in torturing their opponents.

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2010 6:42 #
choosy
Member

bhai wantinsaf,
inko har baat dair se samjh aati hay .
aur logical baat tou bilkul bhi nahin samjh aati.

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2010 6:47 #
wantinsaf
Member

@LiberalKarachi
The only thing which can promote tolerance within pakistan is marketing yourself as Pakistani.What we see in Pakistan is people are more concerned about their ethnic affiliations,then how on earth can you expect tolerance from these people?Ethno nationalism makes you narrow-minded and stops you seeing issues in Pakistan's prism.
If you take the case of Muslim,whenever we stop showing ourself as Shias,or Sunnis,or Wahabis,it would bring unity among Muslims as they are now more concerned about Islam than their sect.
Showing division on the basis of ethnic,race and sect is leading us towards disaster.We all must promote ourslef as Pakistani and Muslim rather than these self created divisions.
At the end,anyone who is ethno-nationalist, and promotes sectarianism can not be liberal as this is how he showing his/her narrow-mindedness.

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2010 6:53 #
choosy
Member

so called liberals are puasing that they are liberals but actaully they are Koyien ka mendak.

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2010 7:25 #
choosy
Member

liberals aur so called liberals ko wantinsaf buhat achi tarhah explain kar chuka ;ab mujahy bewaquf na banao.
la jawab ho gaye ho tou tasleem kar lo .

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2010 7:33 #
sasherwani
Members

My post:

1. liberals in Pakistan have always claimed to be good Muslim
2. 99% of these liberals are rich enough to perform HUJJ
3. but they don't
4. None of them is familiar with Arabic,
5. liberals don't advocate in West that they are even Muslims
6. they rather promote themselves by using words like liberals and seculars
7. Those who go to Mosque five times a day don't have any love for partying and drinking unlike liberals

Your response:

1-I have mentioned few names in my second comment check them out and these are the people who are afraid to show their true identity for their personal gains.
2-All the people I mentioned are rich enough but practicing Islam is not their cup of tea.
3.Are they familiar with Arabic?

My conclusion:

Your original post about liberals is now limited to these 4,5 bafoons. You took a U-turn when I asked for references. Even if we use your weird example of Nawaz Shareef as a 'liberal', he HAS performed hajj and he doesnt advocate himself as a liberal both in the East or the West.

Your posts are childish and far below logical reasoning.

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2010 8:09 #
wantinsaf
Member

@Sahsherwani
You picked up few points and then jumped to conclusion of your own choice.
I intentionally was using the term so called liberal and as far as nawaz Sharif is concerned he in his many interviews has said that I am liberal for making Americans believe that he can be their man in Pakistan.What do you mean Nawaz Sharif is a good Muslim for the reason he performs Hajj?Do you have any idea what is HAJJ for?If you fail to correct yourself after HAJJ,what's the use of that?That particular act of Sharif was to use religious act for political gains.

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2010 8:28 #
sasherwani
Members

No I didnt pick a few things from your post. I picked quite a LOT of things from your post and asked you to provide references. I dont quite understand how you 'people' intend to get away with stating your personal opinions as facts and statistics?

Enough said about your clueless posts. Your posts are meaningless.

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2010 9:51 #
Qalma'go
Member

Keep it up brother wantinsaf. These religious rebels may call themselves liberal. Committed to acts that are shunned in a religion is what makes a liberal...

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2010 10:01 #
mjkk86
Member

to be honest i did'nt get the purpose of this thread. what liberals gotta do anything with islam.
classic defination of liberalism is wide enough to cover good muslims and bad muslims.
for example there are so many good muslims who believe in civil liberties, human rights, equality and there are some bad muslims who don't miss the oppurtunity to discriminate others.
so moral of the story is it's kinda personal thing being liberal does'nt mean you are not a good muslim or away from islam or promoting christianity, jewism or hinduism.

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2010 10:25 #
wantinsaf
Member

@mjkk86
In the beggining you wrote down "what liberals gotta do anything with islam".
Then the very next sentence of yours say "classic defination of liberalism is wide enough to cover good muslims and bad muslims".
Both the statements of yours contradict with each other.
Now come to the purpose of topic:Our society is divided in different portions and one of them is made of these so called liberals who are using liberalism for their personal gain.As Pakistanis are very much concerned about Islam so these liberals can not help claiming that liberalism is the right way to live your life.
I have written earlier that I myself am a liberal so is every Muslim but the problem lies with the fact people are misusing liberalism for their personal gain and some of them are even working on foreign dictation.
I hope now you get it.

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2010 10:58 #
Anonymous

Now I am getting it as when some other thread came to the top my post got deleted so I dont like spamming but until I dont heard the reasons I will keep posting....

http://pkpolitics.com/discuss/topic/imran-khan-compaigning-for-jimimas-brother

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2010 11:15 #
javedsheikh
Members

There are four instincts of human nature.
1. Orthodox
2. Conservative
3. Moderate, Centralist or Liberal
4. Radical or Extremist
Politically these instincts end up into three groups,
1. Rightist, who support the traditional co-existence
2. Centralist, who support a policy after a balanced judgment.
3. Leftist, who support change for better.

A person could be conservative, liberal or radical about any social, political, religious, economic or professional issue.
It is a personal mind set to adjust the preference of choices.
It is not honest to twist the definition of Liberalism to prove someone as anti-religion.

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2010 11:20 #
Patriot
Member

mjkk86 brother
for example there are so many good muslims who believe in civil liberties, human rights, equality and there are some bad muslims who don't miss the oppurtunity to discriminate others.

My dear brother. The issue here is much simple. A liberal who flouts his religion to justify his lust is sure a liberal and this particular type is being discussed here.

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2010 11:20 #
Patriot
Member

@wantinsaf
personal gain and some of them are even working on foreign dictation.
I hope now you get it.

Correct. Under the garb of liberalism you will find these turncoats struggling to dilute beliefs of a religious follower. You will find them everywhere spreading their ideology with sugarcoated select words.

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2010 11:27 #
Salam
member

instinct is not related with concepts or thoughts, instinct is basic instinct which is also found in animals such as instinct of survival or instinct of procreation etc...

these terms such as center, left and right are relative terms and only have meaning when defined per a reference, these how no meanings by default-

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2010 11:52 #
Anonymous

Liberalism (from the Latin liberalis, "of freedom"[1]) is the belief in the importance of liberty and equal rights.[2][3] Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but most liberals support such fundamental ideas as constitutions, liberal democracy, free and fair elections, human rights, free trade, secular society, and the market economy. These ideas are often accepted even among political groups that do not openly profess a liberal ideological orientation. Liberalism encompasses several intellectual trends and traditions, but the dominant variants are classical liberalism, which became popular in the 18th century, and social liberalism, which became popular in the 20th century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberals

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2010 11:55 #
Salam
member

yea.... "wide array of views depending on 'understanding of principles"

all these terms such as free, fair, human rights, free trade, secular etc are relative terms and have different definitions per different peoples-

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2010 12:04 #
mjkk86
Member

@yaha
stop draging imran in evry thread what imran gotta do anything with this thread. do not please your master.
btw majority of mqm workers lives in mill hill and golders green jews majority areas of london and its widely believed that they get along well with eachother.
imran khan is on good term with his ex wife obviousy he is not farooq satar so one would expect him to be loyal with ex wife.

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2010 12:08 #
Anonymous

@mjkk86

You mean talking about the reason of this thread is Imran bashing????

As I posted a link to another thread which I believe reaction to this thread so open that link and then tell me am I wrong in this???

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2010 12:13 #
mjkk86
Member

@yaha
why don't you tell your boss to stop being drama king. i have seen mqm rally in london for 7/7 but haven't seen them coming out for countless 7/7, drone attacks, target killings or is he scared of loosing citizenship. once you are citizen you will remain citizen unless secratary of state thinks you are harm to the socitey i gotta admit bhai is playing his card very well.

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2010 12:14 #
Anonymous

@mjkk86

Your frustration is worth reading...When I said about the reason of creating this thread you start bashing other party or leader of other party instead of answering my question...

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2010 12:30 #
Salam
member

mqm has got control of a large sized 'jageer' and now they don't care about the original philosophy of this movement

now mqm is part of Oligarchy

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2010 12:33 #
mjkk86
Member

@yaha
i am not frustrated bro, just showing u the mirror.
by the way why did saleem shahzad(mqm) slap army officer that shows the caliber of mqm supportes and leaders.
look, there is alot i can talk about but i am not yaha87 who would'nt miss an oppurtunity to bash imran.
i told you several time i hate right wing parties, hate right to centre parties but will defend imran khan no matter what happens coz i have started holding cricket bat watching him play, i always admire him, he is honest, love pakistan, don't slap army officers, don't play the race card, never commited any murder, and unlike babar ghori earned his money by playing cricket all over the world, married to british girl but prefered to live in pakistan unlike you master who is scared of loosing british citizenship, mqm supporters comes to uk and apply for bogus assylum application that they are feaaring for their safety in karachi that makes every one laugh honestly.
i think conservative are rite on immigration issue, mqm supportes only go to uk for free housing, benefits and jobseeker allownce

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2010 13:33 #
mjkk86
Member

@yaha
uk border agaency should not allow mqm supporters to reside in uk coz they don't work legal rather work in takeaways and spend rest of the time at edgeware road. mqm supporters are bad for uk's economy govt should kick them out.

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2010 13:39 #
mjkk86
Member

where are imran haters now?

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2010 13:42 #
Salam
member

uk can flex political weight in pak by giving protection to a mafia don, this guy is dependent on their security & protection so he has to obey their policy in letter and spirit

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2010 13:42 #
mjkk86
Member

@salam
absolutely, i agree with you.
trouble is i maself don't agree with imran's policies that does'nt mean he is not a good person and you start bashing him on every forum. what these looters have done for pakistan? claims to be pakistani on other hand desperate to fly out from paksitan to get everything for free no wonder they would hate the policies of conservative.

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2010 14:04 #
Anonymous

@mjkk86

Keep talking as you cant defend your Tanga leader by just answering a single question of my post by going of topic and start talking about MQM which isnt even related to the thread....thats all arguments you IK fan club got when you people cant even answer a simple question start bashing others...perhaps Imran Khan is losing because he have their supporters like you people who dont even answer the single question and talk about others corruption, cases etc....

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2010 14:10 #
mjkk86
Member

@yaha
u haven't answered my questions, stop comparing your leader with great imran khan. altaf is a waste of space and imran is our pride.
by the way i don't like pti as it's ideology differs from mine but if you try to be cheeky by starting propaganda against imran i will hit you with eeven stronger arguments.
so watch out.

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2010 14:19 #
Salam
member

strange MQM logic, instead of defending a vision or philosophy or principle they are defending a personality by ridiculing other personalities?

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2010 14:21 #
Anonymous

@mjkk86

hehehehehehehe
comparing someone with Taliban Khan thats the last thing left doing for me as I also asked another member in this thread to stop giving anyne a bad name by comparing him with Imran Khan....

Would you like to post your question again because I dont see any question mark in any of your post related to me...

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2010 14:26 #
Salam
member

mjkk86

that is the only way MQM can defend their self exiled peer sb, by bashing other political parties -simple logic ;)

no idea or vision, just pure human worshiping at best

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2010 14:34 #
Anonymous

@Salam

wow now tell me where Altaf has been defended in this thread???We weren't even discussing Altaf until mjkk86 start posting irrelevant post about Altaf while being unable to answer my Question that I asked about this thread....

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2010 14:39 #
mjkk86
Member

@yaha
ooh thanks for reminding the importance of using question mark i though you are sensible enough to answer the issue which i raised rather than looking for question mark on my sentences.

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2010 14:39 #
Anonymous

@mjkk86

before reminding me of your question you have already got many post so thats why its confusing to understand which is yopur question but if you dont want to then its up to you but if you want answer then do me this favor...

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2010 14:45 #
mjkk86
Member

@yaha
i got nothing against you but the way you were posting comments about imran khan i needed to interevene and remind you that don't you dare to compare a patriotic paskitani like imran with insult of pakistan altaf dakoo.

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2010 14:51 #
Anonymous

@mjkk86

OK which of my post offended you before you started MQM bashing????

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2010 14:55 #
barackosama
Member

@Salam
"no idea or vision, just pure human worshiping at best"

I hear the same rhetoric from freedom of speech lovers supporting cartoons who accuse us of worshipping/idiolizing Prophet Muhammad (saw) while least caring of his teachings. Go figure!

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2010 15:12 #
supercreature
Member

yahya87
I see no reason against Imran support for jamima's brother. When you baba jaani altaf kaalia, can support Shortcut aziz and mushi who are doing job for laksami mithal and you dont see any reason to post against apnay bapoo kala kawa ...

Altaf kahan chuppay howay hoo pakistan aaooo tum ko tumhari awaam bulati hay ... darpook

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2010 16:22 #