So called liberals in Pakistan have always claimed to be good Muslim according to their own understanding or miunderstanding about Islam.Almost 99% of these liberals are rich enough to perform HUJJ but they don't.HUJJ is a primary duty of all those Muslims who have enough money to perform it.That clearly shows how little they have got in thier life to spend for Islam and eventually exposes them for their little love for Islam.
Whenever I have read or listened to them they have always come across as those who are unaware of teachings of Islam.None of them is familiar with Arabic,so how can they educate themselves about Islam?
Muslims don't need to show they are liberals as they are born with complete freedom to choose between right and wrong.On the other hands liberals don't advocate in West that they are even Muslims,they rather promote themselves by using words like liberals and seculars.
Those who go to Mosque five times a day don't have any love for partying and drinking unlike liberals.I have seen many of these librals eating in their car during Ramadan without bothering about those who are fasting in holy month.
At the end,I would suggest such hypocrites to muster up their courage and tell the wrold whether they are followers of Islam or athiests.
The purpose behind writting all this down is to expose those who are running anti Islam compaign in this country by coming up what I have personally seen them doing.
Discuss » Current Issues
So called liberals and Islam
(190 posts)-
wantinsaf
MemberPosted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 7:43 # -
@Watinsaif
Islam is universal religion every man who is of straigh nature has no doubt to accept it, Today we are living in a anti Islamic system, the credit goest to jews who worked hard to creat such a dish so they can easily enjoy the feast, We are living in system. We are 100% doing what they have planned century ago,
The only threat they face is the political,economical & social system of Isam, that's why they r struggling hard against such a system, U can see in Afganistan, and in Pakistan
Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 8:00 # -
Wantinsaf,
If Hajj is the only standard of your salvation and piety, here is a real story. The Patwari (land record clerk) of my village, whose monthly salary is less than 10K goes for an Umra every time he is put on “administrative leave” for getting big bribes. I am sure he has performed many Hajj also. Of course he will not call himself a liberal but very religious.
By the way, the Hajj is mandatory for every able Muslim only once. There are about forty percent of repeat Hajiz every year who make others' Hajj miserable due to overcrowding. And the “exteremist” tell everyone, “the worse your Hajj is, the higher your reward will be”!
Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 8:35 # -
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
The standard is loyalty to;
(1) ALLAH ALMIGHTY
(2) Quran
(3) Muhammad (SAW)
(4) Hadees (Ways of Muhammad (SAW))
(5) Standards set by Muhammad (SAW)
(6) Teachings, principles of Muhammad (SAW))
(7) Boundaries set by Muhammad (SAW)
(8) Companions (RA, RAA) of Muhammad (SAW)Those who call themselves liberals today, they! treat mankind in the worst! ways, they lack in ALL of the above.
Liberals want power. In the lust for power, 'zan, zar, zameen', they have lost insanity. As a result, they! treat mankind in the worst! of ways.
Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 9:03 # -
@wantinsaf
First of all you need to develop understanding of Liberals why their are many liberals on the first place....Their are many parts of Pakistan where people from different culture live side by side and one the the example is Karachi...Here in Karachi you will find Punjabi milkman, Pathan buss drivers and chai wala, Muhajir mechanics and white color worker, Sindhi police walas and other Govt. jobs etc so in Karachi Karachiite interact so many people from different culture in a single day and due to that Karachiite have learn to tolerate and understand the differences and do to these habit of tolerating and understanding their perception have also changed from conservative to liberal as their tolerating and understanding habit have allowed them have understanding a sensitive issues without getting angry or without feeling offensive so thats why Karachhite are mostly liberals.....If you go go Punjab and NWFP where different cultures didnt mixed the way they are mixed in Sindh and Baluchistan you will find them conservative as their tolerant level is less then Sindh and Baluchistan tolerant level and as not having that much tolerant level....
Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 9:20 # -
LalBichoo
Blockedwantinsaf,
First of all tell us what you actually mean by the term 'liberal' !
"""So called liberals in Pakistan have always claimed to be good Muslim according to their own understanding or miunderstanding about Islam."""
>>>
Who in your opinion are those 'so called liberals' ??
BTW doesn't every sect/group/religious party consider itself the righeous one and others heretics ???
=============
"""None of them is familiar with Arabic,so how can they educate themselves about Islam?"""
>>>
Is it necessary to learn Arabic in order to be a good muslim ?
===============
"""Muslims don't need to show they are liberals as they are born with complete freedom to choose between right and wrong."""
>>>
What's this ???
Could you plzzzz elaborate what you actually mean !=============
"""I have seen many of these librals eating in their car during Ramadan without bothering about those who are fasting in holy month."""
>>>
lolzzz
Have you seen eating them in cars and chanting 'we are liberal, we are liberal' or it was written on the back of their cars 'we are liberal' ??
How do you know in the first place those who eat in public during Ramadan are in fact liberal ???
They could be non-muslims !==============
"""At the end,I would suggest such hypocrites to muster up their courage and tell the wrold whether they are followers of Islam or athiests."""
>>>
Do you know who is called 'Murtid' ?
Are you aware what's the punishment of 'Irtidaad' in Islam ?
Do you really think a person will not be persecuted if he declares himself an 'Atheist' ??
Don't you know how Ahmedis are being persecuted in Pakistan ?
Don't you know how Shias are being beseiged in Kurram Agency and being slaughtered just becoz they are Shias ?I myself have been personally attacked for being an atheist on this forum, just imagine if some educated members of this forum can become so intolerant then how about illiterate religious bigots !
Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 9:38 # -
Their is a big perception among people that liberals are rich people first they need to get rid of that perception because this is not true....liberals are poor, poorest, and many among middle class...
Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 9:43 # -
Yahya bhai jee ,
Disagree .Ghareeb aur middle class log apni dal roti mein phanse hoye hain .
yahan liberal hay wohh jis ka pait moun tak bhara howa hay .Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 10:06 # -
@choosy
kia app ko pata hai liberal hota kia hai???
bhai ajj kal liberal ziada tar ghareeb hai kyun k ab ghareeb 2 waqt ki roti mai hi khush hai jab k ameer admi tu kisi haal mai bhi khush nahi....
apnay adha glass bhara hoa hai aur adha glass khali ki example tu sunni hogi....
Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 10:18 # -
sasherwani
Members@ wantinsaf,
I would like you to provide valid references for your following claims/ statistics:
1. liberals in Pakistan have always claimed to be good Muslim
2. 99% of these liberals are rich enough to perform HUJJ
3. but they don't
4. None of them is familiar with Arabic,
5. liberals don't advocate in West that they are even Muslims
6. they rather promote themselves by using words like liberals and seculars
7. Those who go to Mosque five times a day don't have any love for partying and drinking unlike liberals.Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 11:38 # -
RajputPuttar
Memberwantinsaf
Too much generalization without any concrete reference.
gentleman, based on your previous msgs , I expect a lot more logical posts from u .
Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 12:03 # -
I feel before discussing the status on the 'so-called liberals', we should first establish the attitude of 'so-called Muslims'.
Better the thread should be titled as:'So-Called Liberals and Extremists'
Blogger s should also specify some of the Liberals and some of the extremists to make it easy to understand.Please, allow me to ask, if Qauid-e-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah was a genuine Liberal or Extremist or so-called Liberal?
Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 12:30 # -
Quiad e Azam was a genuine liberal.
liberalism has its own degrees .
Quaid's success secret was that .
he was neither tilted towards right extreme.
never left extreme.
he was the only Balanced leader in our history .Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 12:40 # -
wantinsaf
MemberI deliberately used the term 'so called liberal'.I am in mood to term such hypocrites as liberals as they are blind-followers;originality is desperately missing in their ways and ideas.
I personally know lots of people who claim to be liberals but as you people don't know so I had better not mention their names.Some of the names whom we all are quite familiar with,I am mentioning here as per their profession;
Politicians:
--------------
1-Musharaf
2-Zardari
3-Altaf
4-Nawaz Sharif
5-Asfand Yar Wali
etcColumnists:
-------------
1-Irfan Hussain Dawn
2-Hoodhbhoy
3-Ayesha Ijaz Khan
4-Nadeem F Parachaetc
I hope these names are enough and now it would be easier to judge what they think of Islam.
As I wrote down earlier Muslims(if they follow it as per Quranic teachnigs) don't need to show they are liberal as they are born with liberty to choose between right and wrong.Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 13:14 # -
RajputPuttar
Memberwantinsaf
this is very disputed statement.
"(if they follow it as per Quranic teachnigs) "
Gentleman,
This is where u r making the mistkae. u r tying to say that your instead of quran is "the" quranic teachings.
Why don't u give others room to make their own understanding of islam ? Why do u expect that your understanding is the final word ?
Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 13:28 # -
@wantinsaf,
100 % agreed with your classification.
Mush and Salman Taseers are so called liberals .
and Najam Sethi ko bhi shamil kar lo un mein.Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 13:37 # -
tamaazkhan
MemberI've seen many five time namazi, being corrupt, thieves, and general thugs - worst of all the use the name of ISLAM to further their nefarious desgins.
So called Mulims(Khwarijites):
Qazi - Munawwar Hassan - JI
TTP
Fazl-ur-Rehman
Sipah-e-SahabaI think its worse for a self proclaimed 5 time namazi to be corrupt, than one who doesn't even claim to be the perfect follower.
wataninsaf:
If the Prophet (PBUH) counldn't judge what a person thought of Islam, WHO THE HELL ARE YOU?
In Islam's eyes whomsoever tries to assume Allah(SWT) atrributes is guilty of shirk.
Only ALLAH (SWT) has the ability ti judge.Plus you missed out a name on your "so-called" liberals:
Imran KhanPosted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 13:52 # -
@ Mr. wantinsaf,
I feel you overlooked some of the most prominent proponents, promoters and founders of the century who initiated the Liberal School of Thought and Liberal Way of thinking, such as:
Sir Syed Ahmad Khan, Maulana Shabeer Ahmad Osmani, Maulana Altaf Husain Hali, Allama Sir Mohammad Iqbal, Sir Agha Khan, Mirza Asad Ullah Khan Ghalib, Mir Taqi Mir, Fiaz Ahmad Fiaz, Habib Jalib, Ahmad Nadeen Qasmi, Saadat Hasan Manto, Hijab Amtiaza Ali, Khadeeja Mastoor, Agha Shorash Kashmiri, Sahir Ludhainvi, Syed Sibt-e-Hasn, Qateel Shifai, Mohtarma Fatimah Jinnah and more.
I personally feel that Liberalism brings a feeling of tolerance, pleasure, satisfaction and peace of mind.
Liberal pattern of thinking helps to save from depression.
A liberal attitude guides to enjoy the beauty and benefits of the Universe without guilt.
Liberalism is the absence of unwanted restraints and restrictions.Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 13:58 # -
Qalma'go
MemberLiberals are individuals who are victims of their own whims and prejudices fallen full time to excessive lust, desire and greed. They are essentially non religious claiming otherwise,a deception.
They also firmly believe in state fascism where economy and religion are controlled by the state.
Still you think that Islam has anything to do with liberalism. Islam already has various freedoms defined...but ooops anything defined is what irritates a liberal.
Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 15:07 # -
All of the achievements, inventions, discoveries and innovations in the fields of technology, art, culture, entertainment, sports, economic, health, science and literature, has been made possible by the liberals.
Pick up any history book to verify this statement.
Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 15:35 # -
tamaazkhan
Member@Naseem
"Islam already has various freedoms defined"
-please elaborate with examplesYou say:
"They also firmly believe in state fascism where economy and religion are controlled by the state"
Then you say:
"...anything defined is what irritates a liberal."
-The two comments seem contradictory. Control of economy and religion requires some measure of definition.Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 15:40 # -
@wantinsaf
At the end, I would suggest such hypocrites to muster up their courage and tell the world whether they are followers of Islam or atheists.
The above is from you initial post. If I may ask according to what you say than:
Liberals are Muslims or Liberals are but Muslims. What should be your question when here you are differentiating among Muslims and atheists!Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 16:04 # -
tamaazkhan
Member@semirza
Who gives you the right to judge who is a hypocrate and who is a Muslim?Last time I checked, that will be done by Allah(swt), on the day of Judgement.
Maybe you know better?
Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 16:09 # -
@JS:
All of the achievements, inventions, discoveries and innovations in the fields of technology, art, culture, entertainment, sports, economic, health, science and literature, has been made possible by the liberals.ARE U SURE ABOUT THIS STATEMENT??????????
Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 16:17 # -
Qalma'go
Member@tamaazkhan
Are you wantinsaf. If not than don't bother.Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 16:22 # -
zia m
MemberKhan Sahib
Let's say most of them are.Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 16:23 # -
The list about some of celebrities, I posted before, were very much Muslims and liberals, but never atheists.
The comparison and match between Liberal and Islam is like comparing oranges with apples.
A Muslim, a Christian, a Hindu, a Jew could be religious and still liberal and moderate.
The opposite of Liberalism is Extremism and not religion.Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 16:25 # -
Qalma'go
MemberBTW is hypocrate is known by the difference in his preachings and to what he practices. Why you have to jump at others bringing in the final day of judgement.
I hope that you know this already.
Like I said anything defined irritates a liberal.....
Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 16:27 # -
Dear Khan Sahib,
Yes I am very much sure about the validity of the statement based upon my experience and research.
If not ALL then I can say MOST.
The most man made beautiful, attractive, peaceful and worthliving places on the Globe, are due to the contributions of Liberalism. (For instance Dubai, a Muslim but liberal state.)
Extremism has sucked out the capabilities of free thinking what is a prerequisite for development.Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 16:39 # -
@Zia:
I agree with you but not with JS statement of "ALL"
Actually, if it was from some new member then I wouldn't bother but I know JS from some time now and would prefer to pull his leg every now and then as it brings the very best of JS replies... LOLPosted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 16:39 # -
JS Sahib,
I would agree if u say "Most of them" not ALL!
Cuz even if I give u 1 example that will nullify your theory though I am able to give a long list!Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 16:41 # -
@zia m
All of the achievements, inventions, discoveries and innovations in the fields of technology, art, culture, entertainment, sports, economic, health, science and literature, has been made possible by the liberals.
Let's say most of them are.
Can you plese site some examples of people that were not liberal and made some big contriburtions.Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 17:18 # -
Dear "Liberal" Bunch
As we get the swipe that there is no one definition of Muslim so let see
What is the definition of a Liberal according to you guys.
Can we have ONE, I mean ONE definition of a liberal.
Then we will decide whether the following is true and whether YOUR definition of "Liberal" is agreeable by the very people you are calling "Liberal" ;-)
"All of the achievements, inventions, discoveries and innovations in the fields of technology, art, culture, entertainment, sports, economic, health, science and literature, has been made possible by the liberals."
FJ
Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 17:49 # -
Blogger, your writing is as vague as the stance of the individual and party you stand behind. Anybody who eats during fasting time is a liberal? A liberal is also a hypocrite? The pro Islam vocal individuals are as much non-practioners of Islam. A liberal could might as well have profound understanding of Islam, take Ghamdi for instance. In the context of our culture, liberal might as well equate to lineant, women's emancipator, an advocate of civil liberties. Among the Sunnis there is no common understanding of Talaq based on the verses and ahadith on the subject, can you then substantiate an understanding on which the "non-liberals" agree. They agree only on following Islam, their own one: Deobandi, Ahl-e Sunnah, Ahle-Hadith, Tablighis etc. In all these groups you shall find liberals.
Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 18:04 # -
zia m
MemberFJ
Here is a great quote by a scientists.Could you tell me if the fellow making the statement is a liberal or orthodox.Therefore, the seeker after the truth is not one who studies the writings of the ancients and, following his natural disposition, puts his trust in them, but rather the one who suspects his faith in them and questions what he gathers from them, the one who submits to argument and demonstration, and not to the sayings of a human being whose nature is fraught with all kinds of imperfection and deficiency. Thus the duty of the man who investigates the writings of scientists, if learning the truth is his goal, is to make himself an enemy of all that he reads, and, applying his mind to the core and margins of its content, attack it from every side. He should also suspect himself as he performs his critical examination of it, so that he may avoid falling into either prejudice or leniency"
Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 18:10 # -
Qalma'go
Member@barackosama
Sorry to jump, pls allow me to say:
Liberalism is an alien concept; invented terms, obviously extracted from our deen and then being projected as separate standalone ideologies. We are nobody to force you. Likewise we won't accept and will adapt anything alien (and already part of our Deen) however sugarcoated it may appear parallel to teachings of our Deen that we hold so dear to us and will always refer to.Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 18:14 # -
ziam
So what is YOUR definition of a liberal
And how you will reconcile the fact that your definition of a liberal could be someone elses definition of a fundamentalist
FJ
Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 18:16 # -
@Naseem
Well then you also reconcile other concepts such as democracy, social welfare. These views too are foreign that have been blown out of proportion and do not quite go hand and glove fit with Islam. We have shura and baitul maal i.e. different means to achieve similar goals.
Many people at the time of Uthman bin Affan ra were angry with him because he was lineant, similarly Aisha ra when old said of the women of the time that Prophet SAW would have not approved of ways how women conducted themselves. Were those Tabaeen women liberal? Were those Sahabas liberal who told Abu Bakr ra not to fight with the tribes who denied paying zakat?
Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 18:31 # -
zia m
MemberAs long as you believe in reason, logic and empirical evidence, and can set aside personal bias and prejudice you have a liberal thought.
Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 18:31 # -
As long as you believe in reason, logic and empirical evidence, and can set aside personal bias and prejudice you have a liberal thought.
I would add that the person also believes in freedom, rule of law and equality of rights.Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 18:52 # -
dear ziam
"As long as you believe in reason, logic and empirical evidence, and can set aside personal bias and prejudice you have a liberal thought"
If I apply your above prescription on the belief in Allah swt, the angels and Quraan being the Speech of Allah, do I still get the desired result and If under the prescription I have to deny all this Only then I will have the LIBERAL THOUGHT.
Interesting !!!!!
Lo aap apne daam mein sayyad aa Giya ;-)
FJ
Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 18:56 # -
Qalma'go
MemberDemocracy a greek concept adopted by the christian west is a tool to keep state and religion apart, main reason it is being enforced on us through various means like sanctions. It suits the west more and not us.
For us we have our own guidlines properly termed. This entrapment has not worked in our part of the world is a proof to its ills and evils.
When we have our own well defined terms there is no reason we should change them with western terms.
Zakat termed as religious tax. No,Zakat is an offering a practicing Muslim is urged to give away as a help to the needy only when he is able to. Not compelled to pay like a tax.
A liberal who doesn't likes to live under religious constrains or confines is actually a rebel, seeking liberty from religious confines.Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 18:59 # -
Dear Lota
BTW you conviniently ignored my last post on "HT "Revivalists" and Denouncers" thread.
FJ
Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 18:59 # -
FJ The links i provided in that thread already cover everything you asked for.
Can you translate your above post in this thread?Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 19:01 # -
zia m
MemberThanks lota, for your additions.
FJ,
One's personal beliefs has nothing to do with it as long as you don't impinge upon the rights of others.Liberals are not against freedom of religion or freedom of thoght.PS: I hope your beliefs are based on reason and logic!
Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 19:05 # -
Liberals believe in freedom of religion and freedom from religion.
Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 19:12 # -
ziam
So why you or some other Liberals do not give the definition of a Liberal and why keep giving the quotations/remarks/saying of other "great" people.
And why applying your "reason, logic and empirical evidence" makes one a non believer and transpires, translates and implies that only a non believer can be a liberal.
@ Lota:
So finally the cat is out of the bag.FJ
Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 19:14 # -
zia m
MemberFJ,
What is wrong with quoting a great Muslim scientist.
You don't make any sense.
You are free to give your definition of a liberal.Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 19:19 # -
dear ziam
Nothing wrong quoting anyone.
I am just trying to draw the attention that when people on the other side of the political/philosophicl divide quote someone to establish their POV then they are frowned upon and dismissed. So I merely was pointing to a irony and a paradox.
FJ
Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 19:46 # -
zia m
MemberFJ,
I don't know about others but you never gave your opinion regarding the quote if you agree or not.You are simply using circular argument that other people don't like quotes.I think it is a beautiful quote and we need to learn from it.
Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 20:02 #
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