Salam
member
Thanks mirza ghalib, I thought to adopt shimatoree like hard hitting style to make little waves :)
regarding:
"jinnah being a shia, might well have been condemned to death in today's Pakistan..."
Isn't PPP shia dominated and shia led party?
People want solution and if shia leader can provide solution to masses people will love him!
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@Mirza Ghalib: Brother, you are 'too straight', as I see it.
@Salam: How do you substantiate your claims about Mr. Jinnah being a 'British Agent' ?
Mr. Jinnah failed in what elections ? How did he 'bring' all of these 'entities' in Muslim League ? Weren't Muslim League already a group of elite of Muslims at the time ?
What is the source of your information on these words ?
Not Possible
Blocked
PPP a shia party?? wow since when? More propoganda? To have attachement to Ahlay Bait or Alay Rasool is the mark of all muslims not just shias.
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@Not Possible: Islam's vision. There is only one! Islam, that which ALLAH ALMIGHTY sent to mankind.
ALLAH didn't send two or three, or four or ten or hundred Islam.
Not Possible
Blocked
Thanks MG as always.
@ Haris Khan
you have an amazing knack of talking around issues, creating you own chain of thought and just blindly steam rolling forward without addressing any point.
Even MG picked up on the real essence yet you seem to come up with a just a totaly un-meaningful comment "you are too straight"??!!
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
Yes, brother Mirza Ghalib is being 'too-straight'.
@Not Possible: You raised a non-issue, a worthless argument. I did not want to 'dignify' a 'non-issue' with a response.
You raised this question to provoke people.
No Sunni would persecute a 'shia' in a Muslim state. Even if Jinnah was shia, he would never be persecuted inside Muslim state.
(1) Shia and Sunni people inter-marry. They have brotherly relations.
(2) Since the MMA movement was formed or revived, tensions between different 'sects' inside Pakistan have 'decreased' 'significantly'
There's a general consensus in 'collaboration' among different 'sects' for betterment of masses in Pakistan.
(3) As people of Pakistan come out of 'recuperating' mode, these tensions will further decrease with time
Inshallah, HK, inshallah. In which case, certainly, such threads will have become redundant. But at the present time, there is still some justification for such a query: where is our Muslim tolerance towards minority groups going?
And, true enough, Islam is one and indivisible. All this sectarian nonsense are details finally and will disappear when we've understood better.
Qalma'go
Member
What a load of ****!
"Jinnah being a Shia might well have been condemned to death in today's Pakistan..."
Jinnah was very much revered by Muslims during his lifetime. Even after his death he is remembered by us as Quaid e Azam.
Stop this nonsense of spreading sectarian hate.
Salam
member
haris khan
study jinnah's role in political negotiations with congress & british raj, what mandate did he have??
study election history of 1930s
study jinnah's proposal to unionist party's chiefs and their position/views on jinnah's proposals
study what is a role of agent? a person who is an agent of an entity like travel agent or sportsman's agent etc etc jinnah was a british agent :)
@Salam
"jinnah was a british agent :) "
And that means so was Madar-i-Millat ;-)
BTW: You know what's coming... :)
Salam
member
@nota
lolzz...
honestly speaking, i never researched on her so not sure if she served british interests or american interests as after british partitioned india, usa also got active player in our region
@Salam
"as after british partitioned india, usa also got active player in our region "
Much earlier, bro, much earlier. Some say "the founder of Pakistan was Franklin D Roosevelt and not Muhammad Ali Jinnah as a conspiracy theory claims that it was the pressure of the former that made British government decolonize South Asia in order to control the Sovietization of region and Jinnah-card was used by Her Majesty to counter Hindu response?"
:)
Not Possible
Blocked
wow QuaideAzam was a British Agent, anything else whilst your at it?
And who was for Pakistan, the same Mullahs who everyone knows bitterly opposed Pakistan?
Salam
member
not possible
there were those who opposed british plans and consequently were jailed, ripped of their property, thrown out of country, hanged, sued, persecuted and there were those who were invited by royal highness for meetings to negotiate power hand over-
why would royal highness like one while brutally put down others?
@Salam
Any Name if you like to mention???BTW Pakistan Struggle wasnt FORMALLY started till 1945 when Quaid-e-Azam was in Negotiation for Power Sharing but after that when the Negotiation failed then Pakistan Struggle got started Formally...Talking about British punishing those who were gainst their ideas then their were so many AIML workers also Got Punished for What????
What I should like to know is this: What difference if the Quaid-e-Azam and Fatima Ali Jinnah were the agents of Satan himself? They did it... They created Pakistan, thereby galvanising the entire Muslim world into renewed hope and fervour.
Look, the downfall of the Ummah has been going on for ages now. The turning point for the revival came through the existence of Pakistan. We are now on an upwards trajectory as one after the other we each begin to open our eyes again. That takes time as well. Pakistan, for instance, appears to be at the nadir of its fortunes at present. No other way left now except up, up and up, until we take over the rightful role reserved for us as leaders of the Ummah.
Running down the great founder of Pakistan serves strictly no purpose in our present fight for recovery from our sick bed.
shimatoree
Member
The REALITY of Pakistan became a certainty after the 1937 meeting between Congress-( Nehru -president) and Muslim League prior to and after the UP elections.
The Congress won an absolute majority in UP and contrary to it's prior understanding with Muslim League about power sharing- decided to ditch the Muslim League. Even though Congress had not won a SINGLE Muslim seat- it declared itself as the party representing the Muslims. Once this happened- Jinnah and those in the Muslim League were faced with the REALITY of the TRUE character of the Hindu once they were in majority.
Once this demonstration of " MAJORITARIAN " democracy was made- the false concept of a United India where everyone would live happily ever after was gone for ever.
According to modern day scholarship in India- everyone including Jaswant Singh agree that this was a gargantuan Blunder by the Congress in political terms and laid the foundation of the Muslims demand for Pakistan as non-negotiable.
In gambling this would be called over playing one's hand .
Nehru who was a mere front man for the very clever Gandhi and who was a man " devoid" of ideas of his own- having merely imported re-hashed Western thought BUNGLED into a disaster from which the sub continent has yet to recover.
And the tragedy is that in Pakistan there actually is a segment which looks up to this same India for guidance. So for anyone to talk about Pakistan decision being made in 1945 is False.
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@Salam: Are you furthering the point that;
(1) "Pakistan was 'created' through non-Islamic way(s) of 'struggle'" ?
or
(2) Pakistan was created as an 'under-cover' project/ploy against Muslims ?
..and .. by claiming that, you are trying to say .. what exactly ?
Yeah right! Quaid-e-Azam was a british agent, Allama Iqbal was a zionist, so F U and Eid Mubarrak...
Salam
member
mirza ghalib,
may be you can help me understand how jinnah created pakistan or that british plan approved in their parliament? how did the transfer of power take place?
shimatoree
with all due respect but your statement "Muslim League about power sharing- decided to ditch the Muslim League.." is illogical because AIML didn't win more than one seat- other muslim party (unionist party) won muslim seats in muslim majority areas, a couple of AIML candidates who did actually win under jinnah's AIML switched over to ruling unionist party...hahahah same like what happens today.. in fact they were forefathers of present day A-Z leagues.. :)
Not Possible
Blocked
so Jinnah didnt create Pakistan!!!, he is not the founding father??? then who is??
Salam
member
no he didn't create anything, please see who drew the lines with authority and power-
shimatoree
Member
salam-
it might help if you would carefully Read what I said. I was talking about the 1937 election in UP and not Punjab or the Muslim majority provinces!
Salam Sahib, you have me there. You, semirza Sahib, shimatoree are the great specialists of the hsitory of the Subcontinent. And sure, the white hand of our masters drew the lines of our future State, etc. All this still does not lessen the stature of our Founding Father. Soon you'll be coming with his personal life to bolster your case.
So, agent or no agent as I've already mentioned above, meaning I respect your arguments but do not understand their relevance, he was the figurehead of our independence and that is enough for me. He gave me, us a country we could believe in and he rejuvenated Islam and its impact the world over. For that I'm deeply grateful to him. I respect and admire him. And the majoity of Pakistanis along with me.
shimatoree
Member
ANYONE and I mean anyone who knew Jinnah knows one FACT.
Jinnah was no one's lackey or agent.
So please do stop this attempt to maligne a man who was honest though irrascible with integrity like granite.
He was everything that today we yearn for.
Yes he was a Shia and I pray that all Muslims of Pakistan become a Shia like him.
I am willing to accept any and al criticizms but I cannot accept questions taht are raised about a few people like the Prophet Mohammad, Hazrat Umar, Imam Hussein and Jinnah.
So I would like to request that on this day of Eid- Stop it.
Salam
member
shimatoree jee,
same is request to you, please tell me how many seats did AIML win in 1937 election in UP??
why was he looking for a paper marriage with punjab/bengal CMs to let them continue with dirty politics of constituencies while he get mandate to negotiate with congress at center?
oh sure, he enjoyed british raj support through out his life, he was their man-
finally i see shimatoree reacting and losing objectivity :)
Salam
member
mirza ghalib sahib
no problem with that mainstream following, i am just a little heretic here in this case :)
i don't find any struggle of jinnah or that of his political party in securing rights for muslims while british decided to partition and leave... in fact few years before partition there was not even a call of separate homeland, i think jinnah used that as a bargaining chip to secure some mandate at center british raj thought otherwise and he obeyed like a true royal subject-
Quaid-e-Azam was interested in Muslim's Rights in India in anyways Possible Partition or without Partition and that was the reason why he went to Negotiation with Gandhi in 1945 if he was all for Partition only then their wouldnt have been any negotiation on the first place in 1940s when British was planning to leave...He was more Interested in Muslims of Subcontinent not on Partition of Subcontinent....When negotiation failed then he decided with full confidence that now Pakistan is only solution left....If anyone of you know that AIML was only popular in Sindh and bangal of current Pakistan region while Punjab had Unionist majority, Baluchistan had Khan of Kalat and NWFP(current KPK) were Khudai Khidmatgaar...while Only Sindh where AIML had Narrow majority due to their Sindh Bombay separation stance and Bangal(Current Bangladesh) were the only supporters of Quaid-e-Azam led Muslim League...the rest of support that Quaid-e-Azam got was from Indian Muslims who were the most effected by Congress pro Hindu Politics...So that is why today most of Pakistan and Quaid-e-Azam's message is not interpreted properly and we are just busy on deciding the reason for creation of Pakistan as some times we try to create Relevance of Two Nation Theory and Some times we started making Islamic and Sharia a reason for creation....
Salam
member
gazi23, but jinnah didn't get mandate from those Urdu speaking people, he got mandate from punjab & bengal by making deal with chief ministers-
like today you go and make deal with altaf hussain to give vote to PPP and we let you rule karachi while PPP keep control of center
Salam Sahib, good we've sorted that one. In my book, heretics are always welcome. One can learn a lot from them. Tell me one thing, though: what about Allama Iqbal in all this? Does your reading of history also show him up in a British agent role? I'm asking not because I seek an argument. But your views would interest me greatly.
Shimatoree can also be allowed to lose his cool at times. He's made of flesh and blood like us all. He has made no secret of the people he admires. Touch them at your own peril.
@Salam
He did get his mandate from Indian Muslims as much as he can get but since Hindus were in Majority so it was quite Natural to assume that he couldnt have won....Talking about making deals then I dont know about any deals he made British were Convinced that something had to be done...In Sindh a Vote of JM Syed in Sindh assembly in 1947 made Sindh part of Pakistan and in NWFP(KPK) Referendum result while Bangal was AIML's home ground where AIML had most of their support and Punjab was already decided to be part of Pakistan if Partition plans were ever pushed cause Muslims majority....So I dont think their was any DEAL with CM's of provinces possible...
shimatoree
Member
salam-
The Muslim League won around 30 plus seats in UP while the congress won over 100. I would suggest that you ought to consider the whole picture rather than picking snippets here and there to suite your point of view which is what I expect and see here from those that are fascinated by the West
The allegations that you appear to be putting on Jinnah are without any foundation and without merit.
To put it bluntly your allegations are false.
Do study the subject, read the writings of those that were Jinnah's contemporaries.
I normally do not doubt anyone's sincerity but I think here you are disingenuous.
No , I have not lost my objectivity.
If nothing else is available to you- please try to read Jaswant Singh's book which is very well documented .
End of story which means no further comment on what you might or might not write either on this or anything else.
@Salam
Here is an old interview I ran across. You might find it interesting. It is of Gopal Godse, co-conspirator in Gandhi's assassination and brother of the assassin.
"His Principle of Peace Was Bogus"
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@Salam: Again, what is the source of your information ?
How do you explain the fact that 'referendum' was held in different parts of Muslim majority Pakistan, for joining Pakistan. Some provinces or states decided to join Pakistan of their own free will. Were they 'fooled' to 'believe in' 'credibility' of Mr. Jinnah or were they forced ?
Why did people of UP, CP want to join Pakistan ?
How do you substantiate your claims ?
--------------------------------------------------------
@nota: Why should anyone believe words of a man, who is party to murder ?
@hk
"@nota: Why should anyone believe words of a man, who is party to a murder case ? "
First of all. speaking of "Why should anyone believe words of a man, who is party to a murder case", you tell me. Don't most Jamatias earn their wings through assault and murder and you salute them every day :-P
Second, WHY do you insist on proving yourself to be a total idiot? Are you trying to pick a fight with me or something by coming up with stup!d comments when I am not even talking to you?
(I think you are upset by the whipping you received in the floods thread. Go figure out the difference between MAF and cusecs before getting into more complex issues. Oops, I forgot. Your answer was a brilliant "Why should I?" and to continue to insist they were the same. That, my friend, is your mental level, but you fancy yourself as some genius. P!ss off, you nitwit and stop trying to waste my time!)
@hk
And stop blurting something, and going back and editing it ten minutes later. Just proves you talk without thinking and then go "oops...I meant..."
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@nota: No, they don't. Most of these are unsubstantiated 'allegations'.
The reason why people (for example, you), get to blame them for most everything, is because there is no justice inside Pakistan.
Lack of justice means, allegations that are put on others will never be 'checked', 'confirmed', their validity will never be 'ascertained'.
One way people take advantage of this situation is, by 'manipulating' 'public opinion', by putting 'unsubstantiated' blames on others. These people destroy credibility of good people in society, since they know they'll get away with it.
Are you one of such kind of people ?
If injustice persists, it will take our people back to our 'tribal' system. Which is good for us.
--------------------------------------------------------
..and you still haven't answered my question.
I thought you would have 'enough' 'decency' to do that in public discourse. I guess I was expecting too much, eh ?
@hk
"..and you still haven't answered my question.
Is the post addressed to you? No!
Does it anywhere say "Believe this man!"? No!
So your question was stup!d/irrelevant/meaningless, hence went unanswered.
(But I know you will be back with something that will again make no sense.)
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@nota: Do I care who you addressed it to ?
I asked you a question in relation to that statement. This statement made me .. o_O (raise an eyebrow). And this is a public discussion.
@hk
"@nota: Do I care who you addressed it to ?"
I thought we already agreed you too dense to understand simple things. Go comb your beard a hundred times and maybe the static electricity buildup will activate some neurons.
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
..that means, words of a person who's envolved in a murder case will be accepted as 'valid', in this discussion ?
@hk
Well, if the choice is between him and you, he'd be a much safer bet ANY DAY! :)
Salam
member
shimatoree
Yes, one thing i agree that i was looking at 'pakistan' election results where AIML won one seat, while you were talking about india (UP) where they won less than 30 seats (less than 30% of total).
Regarding looking at broader picture, yes I am trying to look at broader picture and don't find jinnah a revolutionary or a leader running political movement at grass root level... in fact i don't see any political movement... he 'worshiped' british law and stood by it as a true loyal guardian for that reason i give him a title of agent as he was an agent of british law, a loyal and sincere agent, was he not!
Mirza Ghalib,
I have different views about Allama Iqbal.
Last but not least, I am not expert of sub-continent history, I am just a student who is beginning to understand what really happened, I am still trying to get out of my childhood indoctrinations...
Hussain Farooqui
Member
Secularism in Europe was established to keep away clergy from the sovereignty. There was a time when clergy was very powerful in the European States. All the revenue collection was also in the hands of clerics. Gradually, clerics became deviant in their practices, so social changes occurred in the European society to keep clergy away from sovereignty.
All the European countries thus declared their constitution as secular, although, the prevailing practices are all based on the religious teachings of Christianity.
Similar is the case of India, it is a purely Hindu State, although the constitution is so called secularist.
Salam
member
HF,
muslims and christians of europe do not share common history or experience, muslims under islam had golden age while europe under clergy had dark age
@HF
Gradually, clerics became deviant in their practices, so social changes occurred in the European society to keep clergy away from sovereignty.
Gradually? They were deviant from the start, throughout history, and are deviant TODAY.
Not Possible
Blocked
so are our clerics.
@Salam
"I am still trying to get out of my childhood indoctrinations... "
Good luck stepping out of 'The Matrix' :)
(And I am sure you are aware indoctrination is a non-stop/continuous affair, not limited to childhood alone.)
Hussain Farooqui
Member
Not Possible
True that Qazi Hussain, Fazal Ur Rehman, Samiul Haq are not different from those clerics of the European clergies.
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@Hussain Farooqui: How do you substantiate these claims ?
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