Discuss » Faith and Religion

Islam: Important issue related to Ijtehad and Difference of Opinion

(29 posts)
  1. Dear All AoA

    Although I wrote this in another thread but I strongly believe this require its own thread.

    Dear Moderator: Please leave this thread in Current Issues.

    Whenever there is a discussion of implementation of Islam comes, Time and again the issue of many interpretation of Islam raises its ugly head. People who dislike islam, people who are not aware of detailed islamic rules, seculars who hate islam, uses this issue against the implementation of islam in modern day.

    Yes there are many interpretation of same ayah or same hadith, yes there is a difference of opinion on important issues, yes there opinions which are poles apart from each other on the same matter. So whats all the fuss about. In any society there are as many opinion as many people are there. Even if we take the example of democracy we will find tens of opinion and definitions of it. Same with any other system in the world. If we take the example of US, there are always difference of opinion in House of Rep and Senate and even within President's own cabinet and staff. Do we ever hear that US presidential system should be scrapped or democracy should be scrapped because there are more than 100 different opinions and version of it exist.

    In any soceity and ruling system there are ways to settle the disputes and sort out the difference of opinion.

    One of the fundamental piller in islamic jurisprudence is the concept of Tabanni or adoption (Not the child adoption). Without understanding this concept in detail and understanding who has the right to do adoption, In which areas adoption can be done and what are the rules about Mujtahid leaving His/Her (Yes Her as well)opinion, whether adoption can be part of penal code or not, whether islamic opinions can be cannonised or not, people should avoid passing comments on "many interpretation" concept.

    The very reason we have so many different interpretations and opinions of Islam that people are unaware on the issue of Tabanni and sorry to say even Ulema are silent about it.

    In my humble opinion and little knowledge that if this concept of Tabanni is widely discussed then Ulema themself will come under pressure not to give opinions willy nilly and there will be not so many interpretations. The ruling system in Islam has a direct link with the concept of Tabanni and I suspect some Ulema are worried that by discussing this in open way will erode their influence and ability to control the masses under the guise of islam.

    So the problem is NOT the many interpretations of islam, it is absence of discussion on the concept of Tabanni.

    FJ

    Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2010 20:55 #
  2. @Farigh Jazbati
    So the problem is NOT the many interpretations of islam, it is absence of discussion on the concept of Tabanni.

    If Tabannai is an important issue, and should be discussed for sake of awareness, then lets do it.

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Mar 2010 5:12 #
  3. Salam
    member

    a very good concept for discussion to counter the secular argument of Islam having 'many version' and 'divisions' while when it comes to secular system they term same 'many divisions' as blessing and 'division' as human right.

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Mar 2010 5:32 #
  4. Man is caliph of Allah in this world. Allah has fall upon him some responisblite to check him how he can use his mind. Quran is greatest miracle. Those who are sincere with Quran and Allah. Allah show them the right path

    I give u only one example

    During the time of Hazrat Umer R.a, when Hazrat Umer feel that people don't show interest in the "Fajar" Prayer, He added the word, "Prayer is better taen sleep" in Azan.

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Mar 2010 6:09 #
  5. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @Faarigh Jazbati: You make it sound like the MULLAH is only concerned about loss of power over other Muslims.

    That doesn't make sense. As I'v repeated over and over again, if MULLAH wanted to gain power, they would have done it when they were giving inputs on making of constitution of Pakistan of 1973.

    Coming back to the original point;

    (1) I don't know/understand what 'Tabanni' is
    (2) What it stands for
    (3) Why is it important ? (What is its significance ?)
    (4) What does the word Tabanni mean here ?
    (5) What does Tabanni have to do with power Islam should have ?

    I need more information, more knowledge, examples, experiences, etc etc in order to understand this concept.

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Mar 2010 6:26 #
  6. Brother HK AoA

    Even if a knowledgeable person on islamic issues like you is unaware of the concept of Tabanni in Fiqh then that definitely proves my point.

    Furthermore you dont have to be jumpy if you are not aware of concept of Tabanni, not everyone of us knows everything. Only Allah swt is all knowing.

    Please do some research and we will carry the discussion further.

    FJ

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Mar 2010 6:58 #
  7. Salam
    member

    sorry, don't want to side track the original thread but to clarify Pshycho's remark that consensus of sahaba RA is a legal source of jurisprudence in Islam-

    i mean it is not someone's mind trying to add/remove something, it is a difference discussion.

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Mar 2010 7:03 #
  8. This thread is being moved to Faith and Religion forum. If you do not find this topic on the main page, look in the F&R section.

    Admin

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Mar 2010 7:14 #
  9. Salam
    member

    admin wants to secularize his forum :)

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Mar 2010 7:40 #
  10. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @admin: When will you acknowledge the fact a that for Muslims Islam + Politics go hand in hand ? You cannot separate them.

    For Muslims, there is NO politics unless it adheres to Islam's standards.

    What Islam proposes is solutions to problems that people face in living their lives. That's politics i.e., working for betterment of people. That is what Islam does.

    How can Politics and Islam be differentiated from each other in Pakistan ?

    Only in the west is Politics taken as 'poli-tics', which means multiple/many, blood sucking ticks.

    This! is Pakistan. This is land of Muslims.

    STOP! with your racist attitude towards DEEN/Islam.

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Mar 2010 7:41 #
  11. Does anyone recall why we started F&R section?

    The thread about Islam became a fighting forum between ["the progressive, secular, moderate, liberal, open minded, atheist, munafiq"] and [the religious, poise, jamati, mullah, taliban, conservative]. Followed by a flurry of whining to delete posts and ban people?

    Since we started F&R section, things look smooth. I do not recall when I deleted a post in F&R forum last time. Lets keep the things a “spiritually hygienic” way.

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Mar 2010 7:56 #
  12. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @admin: O bhaee, things will never! become smooth as long as discussions are 'stalked' or taken out of limelight or delayed for future time. ALL it achieves is to 'buy time', for some.

    That is called running away from reality. Its not called standing up to it.

    Questions have to be answered. Violations need to be punished. That is how human beings live their lives.

    Untill people know that they will be punished for violations of law of the land, they don't remain steadfast on the right path. They waver away from it.

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Mar 2010 8:01 #
  13. Dear RP

    We are getting closer now.

    First of all as (per my limited knowledge and I invite others to give their opinions as well to learn from each others)
    • Tabanni is done in the matters where an Ijtehad is required.
    • Ijtehad is only done in the matters/issue/situations which is never faced before (i.e no direct instructions from quran, Sunna or ijma'a sahaba)
    • Ijtehad is the Hukm of Allah for a particula matter (i.e the whole process and struggle of a mujtahid is to establish/find the hum of Allah swt)
    • Ijtehad is only an individual effort and not a collective one, although can be accepted by other mujtahideen if they do not want to do their own ijtehad in the same matter.
    • Ijtehad is only binding on the mujtahid him/her self and it is Haram for a mujtahid to leave his/her ijtehad.
    • Mujtahid is only required to leave his/her own ijtehad if a different ijtehad is Adopted (Tabanni) by the leader/state of the Muslims
    • The state authority of the Muslims can not do any tabanni in the personal matters of ibadat (i.e No tabanni in how we pray, hanafi, sha'fi, maliki, etc etc)
    • Tabanni MUST be done in the soceital affairs other wise there will be disputes and anarchy in the soceity.
    • State authority of the Muslims has the SOLE right to do the tabanni; any other authority trying to do tabanni is unislamic and will be considered as rebellious
    • State/leader of the Muslims can change the adoption in a particular matter and can adopt a different opinion/ijtehad than the previous. This depends upon the strength of the evidences used and the understanding of the reality.
    • The previous adoptions (Tabannis) are not binding on the new leader of the Muslims and the new leader can adopt a complete different opinion in the same issue
    • If the state authority /leader of the Muslims has not done a tabanni in a matter then people are free to adopt the opinion which they prefer BUT no one can force their opinion on others. They are only allowed to express the opinion but no enforcement is allowed.
    • There is a BIG difference in Fatwa and Ijtehad. Fatwa is the extension of the existing ijtehad and considers being the lowest of Fiqh knowledge.
    • The whole mess of different interpretations is started when single state authority stopped doing the tabanni and different groups tried to force their interpretation on others without Islamic authority to do so.

    These are the few points and we will continue the discussion.

    Now coming back to the example you gave me, without being emotive about the issue , lets consider a scenario, if in US, government Adopts (Passes legislation) that bearing arms, buying and selliny, and even keeping them in houses is illegal. And also passes (Adopts) a legislation that anyone caught violating this will face x year imprisnment. Can someone in US still keep an arm in his possession by claiming that keeping arms is his personal matter?

    The declaring of certain group of people as non Muslims is not new thing or trend in the Islamic traditions and history. Mu’tazzila, Zaidis and other groups were declared as non Muslims by the state authority and they adopted it as state policy. As these groups never had any foreign support so they died their natural death although their ideas remained in books, few people’s minds and memory.

    FJ

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Mar 2010 14:11 #
  14. RajputPuttar
    Member

    FJ Bahi

    i have posted response on other thread but re-posting it
    again.

    "

    FJ Bahi,

    The example of US has given is a legislation that has nothing to do with religion.

    Whereas the example of 'Qadiyanis' i quoted has a lot to do with religion.

    This is pericsley what my stand is:

    It is acceptable and applicable as law of land.

    But

    Its doesn't become part of religion. A person , is sole authoirthy to interpret religon for himself although he can foloow anybody else interpretation as well.

    "

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Mar 2010 14:19 #
  15. RajputPuttar
    Member

    ook FJ bahi,

    i m calling it a day , and we can resume tomorrow now. Its too late now.

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Mar 2010 14:27 #
  16. Dear RP

    The very nature and meaning of the tabanni is that it is tabanni (adoption). It never becomes part of the deen for ever as it can be changed by later generations.

    We have the examples from the tabanni's of Abu Bakr RA and Umer RA. When Umer RA had a different adoption from Abu Bakr, no Sahabi said How dare you! you are changing the Deen etc etc.

    Everyone knew and understood that these are the matters of Tabanni and Umer RA had adopted a different Ijtehad from Abu Bakr.

    Also The case of Ali RA when as condition to become the khalifa was that he has to honour and follow the Adoptions of Abu Bakr ra and Umer ra, Ali ra refused the condition and said I will do my own adoption. No Sahabi said that OMG! you are going to change the Deen.

    The problem is current day majority of Ulema either dont understand the concept of Tabanni or dont want to know as it will put them on the spot for the opinion they have and try to enforce them with out valid islamic authority.

    I would love to see a different POV to my understanding of this issue and the arguments to back it.

    I hope you understand my point,

    FJ

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Mar 2010 14:28 #
  17. SufiSoul
    Member

    The concept of adoption is no more applicable here.
    Due to the fact that thier is no Mujtid and the MUJTAHID issue has been closed for long time...

    After Sahaba RTA thier is no Mujtahid accepted al all.We have to accept Fatawa about certain matters but IJTIHADI Sahaba is not possible..
    Sahaba were the Mujtahideen and no need to follow any Sahabi RTA by any other Sahabi RTA..
    But after Sahaba RTA this chapter is closed..
    Why we need IJTIHAD is thier any matter we need Ijtihad???
    Pls come up with any matter we need IJTIHAD for than i can talk and explain further..

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Mar 2010 23:08 #
  18. Dear Sufisoul

    If I take your point that there was no ijtehad after Sahaba then please take courage and throw away all the Ijtehadi work by Imam Abu Hanifa, Imam Shafi'i, Imam Maalik, Imam Hanbal, Imam Abu Yousuf, Imam Jaafir Saadiq, Imam Ibn Taimiya, Imam ................. List is endless

    WoW Man ! What a point that there was no ijtehad after sahaba.

    And would you cater to provide the need for Ijtehad on the issue of Blood transfusion, Organ donation, Cloning, IVF, Surrogacy to name a few.

    It is the attitude like yours on the isssue of ijtehad which give ammunition to seculars for onslaught on Islam and islam's so called inability to provide solution for problems.

    Hue tum doost jis ke dushman uska aasmaan kiyuon hoo

    FJ

    Posted 1 year ago on 19 Mar 2010 6:03 #
  19. @ sufisoul

    Furthermore, it would be better if you changed your name to Wahabisouch to make is very clear to people about your line of thinking. No offence

    BTW, if you dont believe in Ijtehad then what are you doing on this thread ;-)

    FJ

    Posted 1 year ago on 19 Mar 2010 10:54 #
  20. SufiSoul
    Member

    FJ,

    Yar aap itny bhi farigh aur Jazbathi na bano jigar....lolzzz

    Please clearify to me about concept of Ijtihad.....
    and pls mention any particular Ijtihadi problem by any of Imam?????

    Posted 1 year ago on 19 Mar 2010 14:05 #
  21. Sufisoul

    This is my understanding of ijtehad

    In a nutshell Ijtehad is the Hukm of Allah for a particula matter i.e the whole process and struggle of a mujtahid is to establish/find the hukm of Allah swt in a particular situation/matter/issue where there is no direct hukm can be found for that situation/matter/issue from quraan or sunnah or ijmaa as-sahaba. So a mujtahid put all of his efforts and knowledge and understanding of the reality to find what is the hukm of allah swt for that matter/situation/issue by using certain adopted criterion backed by the daleel e shari'i

    FJ

    Posted 1 year ago on 19 Mar 2010 18:25 #
  22. SufiSoul
    Member

    That is good understanding,

    Now pls comeup with any of such problems needs Ijtihad.And pls also take care of the (need) of Ijtihad in relation to that particular matter..

    Posted 1 year ago on 20 Mar 2010 11:18 #
  23. SS

    We as human being in general and Muslims in specific, we face many new issue in our daily life due to the fact that we need to fullfil our different biological needs and instintcts. Also as being muslims we need to know the hukm of Allah swt before we embark upon any action, as the shari'i principle is that every action requires an evidence (i.e daleel e shari'i). As being a muslim the whole intention is to live life according to Allah swt's commands.

    Lets take an arbitrary example, imagine someone has just invented TV and present it to me to use it. As a muslim, I need to know whether I can use it and use of TV is not against the command of Allah swt. I look into quran and sunnah and ijmaa sahaba and I cant find a direct command for the usage of TV; what do I do , shal I reject it, shall I use it, may be using of TV is Haraam, I dont know. Thats where the islamic rule of ijtehad comes into action. If I am capable of doing Ijtehad myself then I will do it myself or I will ask a person who is knowledgeable to find Allah swt hukm regarding this particular matter.

    I leave my point on that

    FJ

    Posted 1 year ago on 20 Mar 2010 13:38 #
  24. NNL
    member

    I know you have started this topic for a specific reason and you want Ijtehad on that particular topic.

    It will be a whole lot easier if we know that particular topic u have in mind.

    Posted 1 year ago on 20 Mar 2010 18:28 #
  25. Dear NNL

    I started this thread to increase my knowledge and to get other people's understanding on this topic and more importantly to counter this kind of non sense.

    http://www.jamiabinoria.net/efatawa/index.html

    http://www.jamiabinoria.net/efatawa/peoples.html

    Fatwa against JI ,Jamaati kay peechay namaz perhnay say bachna

    http://www.jamiabinoria.net/efatawa/Firqajat/jamatislami.htm

    http://www.jamiabinoria.net/efatawa/2009-06/6125.htm

    Fatwa Supporting Suicide bombings (as far as Molvis are safe from them )

    http://www.jamiabinoria.net/efatawa/07-21-2008/4224.htm

    If these asr-e-haazir se nawaaqif "Ulema" are stopped issuing fatwas willy Nilly and the principle of tabanni is applied by the state on them, we will have much tolerant and intellectually flourishing soceity.

    FJ

    Posted 1 year ago on 21 Mar 2010 10:27 #
  26. NNL
    member

    i dont see anything wrong in those statements.

    Regarding JI they have specifically said that they have the ideology of Abu Ala Moudoudi they also gave reasons why they dont advise regarding him.

    If you have read that and you have a better argument to convince them otherwise then please do send to them.

    And on Suicide Bombing its their opinion and doesnt have to be right. Its their opinion and they advised it. Mind you their answer is very broad and very general. Nothing specific relating to the Current events they can also be talking about Pak Army Jawans suiciding on Indian Army Tanks to disrupt lines ( its been known to happen )

    So what Ijtehad do u want to do now on it.
    If you want to prove that Abu Ala Maudoodi is not out of Islam than there is a consensus of Ulema on it prove it wrong then you will have a case till then Ulema are right.

    Posted 1 year ago on 22 Mar 2010 13:22 #
  27. very good programmes on the issues of opinion and who has the right to enforce the opinion (tabanni)

    FJ

    Posted 1 year ago on 30 Mar 2010 14:51 #
  28. zia m
    Member

    It is time Muslims start listening to reformists like Ziauddin Sardar.

    http://www.ziauddinsardar.com/Interviews.htm

    Posted 1 year ago on 31 Mar 2010 0:44 #
  29. Muhammad Kamran
    Member

    all muslim ummah Islam is high status for all the world.

    Posted 1 year ago on 20 Apr 2010 11:49 #

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