Thanks. So lets us discuss some possible answers as to a couple of questions such as:
-Incoming land/marine routes leading towards/up to the Indus Valley are greater in number than outgoing routes from the Indus Valley itself.
Or:
-Indus valley had more to do with civilizations that existed on its north and west rather than south and east?
who are the ivc people?
http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/ANCINDIA/HARAPPA.HTM
Their cities were carefully planned and laid out; they are, in fact, the first people to plan the building of their cities. Whenever they rebuilt their cities, they laid them out precisely in the same way the destroyed city had been built. The pathways within the city are laid out in a perpendicular criss-cross fashion; most of the city consisted of residences.
Life in the Harappan cities was apparently quite good. Although living quarters were cramped, which is typical of ancient cities, the residents nevertheless had drains, sewers, and even latrines. There is no question that they had an active trade with cultures to the west. Several Harappan seals have been found in excavations of Sumerian cities, as well as pictures of animals that in no way could have existed in Mesopotamia, such as tigers. There is not, however, a wealth of Mesopotamian artifacts in Harappan cities.
comment : They left their marks all the way up to mesipotamia/Iraq and borders of arabia. The sumerian civilization had Harappan seals. When the IVC cities were dying due to the river drying out they moved and built new cities on the banks of rivers in India. This was a global civilization.
zia m
Member
Interesting article!
IVC shall remain a mystery until one can decipher the language.
So far so good. Now was there any other civilization predating harappan civilization who used burnt bricks?
A link between IV and Tylos/Delmon/Awal has been established where seals with images of an ox are common.
From there to Failaka (Kuwaiti owned Islands) and than onwards to Uruk....
Harappan seals also bear a symbol that is actually an alphabet from an ancient language! This language was and still is very much alive in a distant land across the ocean on mainland Africa.
All humans migrated out of Africa, the DNA evidence tells us that. The symbol of ox has been used by a lot of ancient civlizations in Africa. They even used to wear two ox horns on the side of their head in religious ceremonies. Those two ox horns later became a two point cap with time. There are bush people today in Africa that have language that is composed of tongue clicking sounds. The bajans of aryans/barhamins have poems in a language that comes only from songs of birds. It would be interesting to see if any dna testing has been done on IVC skeltons. The Tylos/Delmon/Awal+ivc civilization for me is pointing towards the first or second migration of humans out of africa that came out of africa to arabia and than towards india, central asia, siberia and America.
Result of a yahoo search
http://www.harrymclaughlin.com/dna_prehistory.htm
Egyptian civilization (another river civilization) had links with todays Ethiopia, Ethiopia with Yemen, Yemen with Oman (Maluha)and Oman with Baluchistan! It all adds up.
yes the Ox symbol was and is really big it Ethopia. Ethopia operated as a bread basket for the egyptions.
http://xhgc18.blogspot.com/search?q=lost+kingdoms+of+africa
Agreed. But the symbol is about a fish standing on its tail. Exactly as it is still found as an alphabet of Ethiopian language. This is what is found on many of IVC seals!
IVC had more than 400 different symbols. If one comes from ethopia there still are 399 more to explain. There is suppose to be a new book coming out Corpus of Indus Seals and Inscriptions vol 3 that will include new never before seen pictures of the IVC seals.
http://www.harappa.com/script/danitext.html
We do not know how the writing evolved. I think it was as the trade developed, writing was necessary. Writing was already known in Mesopotamia. So if I am trying to develop writing in my country, it is not necessary that I should use your symbol. I will give you an example. I went to Korea, and there I started reading a Korean book. The moment I saw their alphabet I said what is this alphabet? They said this is an alphabet invented by our King in the 15th century A.D. I said nonsense, I can tell you the whole origin from my country! But what has happened, they have not taken the syllables from my country, but based on that they have evolved their own symbols, perhaps done even better, with verticals and horizontals. Where we have got circles, they don't have circles at all. Wherever there was a curved circle, they made it a vertical. I said I can trace this.
indigenous development on the basis of the basic principle [from Western Asia]. Because we do not find development from the pictograph right up to the logo-syllabic writing that we know was used in the Indus Civilization. We do not find the earlier one, which is known to us in Mesopotamia, it is known to us in Egypt. Here we find directly logo-syllabic writing. Hence, they must have known about the logo-syllabic writing then in use in Mesopotamia with whom they had trade connections, and then evolved their own, on the same basis. This is what I am maintaining: that as we do not find from the simple pictograph developing into logo-syllabic in Indus Civilization, but we find it in Mesopotamia, and therefore some wise man, some intellectual here in this region must have known that here is a system of writing, why not evolve our own on the same basis.
Q: It may just be that we haven't excavated enough to find the development.
Quite possible, that is no doubt true, tomorrow we may find something and change our opinion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_script
http://www.harappa.com/script/dani0.html
Answer to your question that not enough has been excavated as of yet is a yes because there are many sites waiting to be excavated and whatever we would discover in this process will change our opinions.
Literary and archeological evidence exists that links IVC and Mesopotamia with Bahrain museum (known as Delmun or Tilmun-first appeared mentioned on a clay tablet in cuneiform script and discovered from a temple of goddess Inanna - Uruk that is today’s Iraq) holds an ancient record of trade with IV mentioning bars of copper. Bahrain obviously served as a stopover where seafaring traders from IVC replenished their freshwater supplies along with exchange of trade goods.
You are correct to say Harappan clay seals were an identification mark that has much to do with various traders and trade than a language. Reverse side of these seals carry ropes marks or sack impressions carrying trade goods.
Documentary on how ancient trade was conducted in the middle east. The Frankincense trail.
http://xhgc18.blogspot.com/search?q=the+frankincense+trail
Series in which intrepid presenter Kate Humble follows the ancient frankincense trade route of Arabia across the amazing modern world of the Middle East. Kate's journey along the 2,000-mile trail that first connected the Arab world with the West takes her on a quest that's steeped in history, searing with desert heat, and full of characters and adventure.
Why societies collapse, lecture by jared diamond
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
We need books of prominent Muslims scholars of the era of Ibn-e-Khuldoon to understand the reasons behind the RISE and FALL of nations/civilizations.
@haris khan
Ilam hasil karo chaie cheen (china) jana paraye. Ibn Khaldun is brutally honest and his book the muqadammah is one of my favorites. Enjoy!
http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/ik/Muqaddimah/index.htm
http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/ik/klf.htm
http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/#people
http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/
http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/books/ibn-khald.pdf
http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/hmp/XLVI-Forty-six.pdf
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@lota6177: I thankyou!
Rock Carvings and Inscriptions along the Karakorum Highway
http://www.rzuser.uni-heidelberg.de/~u71/kara/welcome.html
Shortly after the construction of the Karakorum Highway connecting Pakistan and China through the Himalayan and Karakorum mountains, in 1978, Prof. Karl Jettmar (Heidelberg, Germany) and Prof. A.H. Dani (Quaid-i-Azam University Islamabad, Pakistan) discovered thousands of petroglyphs and inscriptions along the Indus valley. These are mainly concentrated in the area east and west of the village of Chilas (Diamir Distr., Northern Areas of Pakistan)(see map). A joint Pakistani-German research project was founded and started its first surveys in 1979. Since 1982 the project is maintained as a research cell by the Heidelberg Academy for the Humanities and Sciences. The systematic documentation and publication of this material has been executed since 1989 under the directorate of Prof. Harald Hauptmann. The project keeps a close collaboration with scholars from Pakistan, England, France and Germany.
The aim of this research is a complete documentation and publication of all major rock art sites in this region. An archive of the collected material is installed in the Heidelberg Academy. A duplicate of it will be built up in Pakistan, e.g. in Gilgit.
The publicationsare presented in two series: Antiquities of Northern Pakistan (ANP), providing selected specialized articles on the subject, and Materialien zur Archäologie der Nordgebiete Pakistans (Materials for the Archaeology of the Northern Regions of Pakistan - MANP) which is devoted to the publication of complete rock art sites in monographs.
Up to now about 30 sites are registered on a stretch of ca. 100 km to both sides of the Indus bearing ca. 30,000 petroglyphs and 5,000 inscriptions in more than 10 writing systems. The carvings are pecked or chiseled into the dark brown varnished surface of the boulders scattered on the river banks and the terraces of the valley.
The earliest examples of Indus valley rock art are dating back to prehistoric times. The most recent (besides modern ones) belong to the period before the Islamization of the region in the 14th to 15th cent. AD. The prehistoric carvings in general show animals, hunting scenes and demon-like creatures in different styles.
http://www.rzuser.uni-heidelberg.de/~u71/kara/intro.html
rock art gallery
http://www.rzuser.uni-heidelberg.de/~u71/kara/gallery.html
@lota6177
Interesting, as if you know my weakness for archeology.
What I find specially intriguing is rock art image of a tall humanoid....so the myths of YETI may hold some truth in them.
Another equally captivating, that caught my eye was shape of the dagger being used in a sacrifice.
Will respond after I am done with the links you provided.
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