Conversations With History - Tariq Ali

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Conversations With History - Tariq Ali

(37 posts)

expakistani
Member

Posted 1 year ago on 01 Mar 2010 20:12 #
zia m
Member

Good analysis by a great intellectual.

Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 8:09 #
Salam
member

i like this guy, have been reading and listening to him for some time

lovely first answer :)

Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 8:30 #
Salam
member

interesting sum up at 13:45 about Landlords & Musharraf

Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 8:58 #
Mirza Ghalib
member

Some seem to feel Tariq Aziz is a great intellectual. Tariq Aziz seems to feel Pakistan is a "dysfunctional state", a thank-you present from the Brits for Indian Muslim support during WWII. How does one trust this bloke who's spent his entire life under western influence and then proceeds to pose as a Pakistan specialist? No humility, nothing. It's a glaring anomaly, exactly like Altaf Hussein giving orders to Karachi from his "safe haven" in Britain. Or that young idiot Bilawal being groomed in Britain to take over Pakistan at some point in time.

Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 9:11 #
javedsheikh
Members

Not all of his analysis is wrong.
There have been always a conflict between intellectual approach and emotional attachment.
To achieve grooming from any foreign country is not at all a disqualification.
Almost 99.9 % Pakistani leaders, politicians, technocrats, scientists, doctors, engineers, Military Generals and bureaucrats have been trained, influenced and groomed by the Western Culture.
We have to present our case to prove and make the people of Pakistan believe that Pakistan is not a 'dysfunctional state'.

Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 10:15 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

Not all the analysis is correct. Most of it is ok.

Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 10:18 #
Salam
member

I guess his views about pre 1947 history might hurt some people who only accept Pakistani (zia's) version of history, but over all his criticism of politicians (especially bhutto & mushy) is valid-

Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 10:22 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

Generally his information is correct, but he does get some of the specifics wrong.

Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 10:29 #
Salam
member

it is always good idea to have evidence/example to qualify your claim.

he does get some of the specifics wrong... such as? ??

Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 10:34 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

(1) He talks about Madrassas', how people are radicalized in Madrassas'

Pupils in Madrassas' don't get radicalized because of their teachers or Madrassa owners preaching radicalization to them. They get radicalized because of prevailing mass scale injustice, system of injustice, that subjugates them, that affects them/our people directly in many ways.

He doesn't point out this fact. He generally blames Madrassas' or the people running it, for it. Either he generalizes or he chooses bad words to put up this point. Take your pick.

(2) He doesn't mention or recognize or acknowledge the role, the struggle of religious groups of people in Pakistan, in Afghanistan

Totally ignores it.

(3) He doesn't acknowledge, doesn't come out in the open to say Mr. Zulfiqar Bhutto was creation of Mr. Ayub

(4) He says or generalizes again that, Zia embraced Islam's values in his government, which is not correct

Zia furthered Army's rule over Pakistan, sidelining Islam, its teachings, its values, its principles, its culture, its laws. He just used the garb of Islam for his agenda, which was Pak Army's agenda.

(5) He doesn't say Mr. Bush threatened Mr. Musharraf, after 9/11

He copied Mr. Musharraf's account and says, Mr. Armitage threatened Mr. Musharraf.

(6) He didn't mention, how hard it was to adhere to Islamic principles in Pakistan, when Pakistan was first created, even though it was created in the name of Islam, Islami Nizam

Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 10:54 #
Mirza Ghalib
member

Yikes, Salam. You got HK on his high horse there and he came back with a fully detailed answer.

Now let me tell all of you something from my small store of wisdom. Anybody who uses the word "radical" or "radicalisation", etc. in connection with Pakistan or Muslims, is a west agent. No more, no less. Tariq Ali is that.

And so, no doubt are the 99.9% (I love that figure) so-called educated people javedsheikh refers to above. From them, the Umma can expect nothing at all except a knife in the back.

Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 12:38 #
azzmat
Member

Mirza ghalib reading your post it is hard to tell if you are being a psychic or a fortune teller? You use telepathy to make posts? What kind of nonsense are you posting as analysis? You are better off using a parrot to help you out when handing out traitor certificates. Your small store of wisdom makes a parrot with learning disabilities and a history of mental retardation look really smart in comparison to you. Please take some advice from my hero Haris Khan and I quote the master STFU.

Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 12:48 #
Salam
member

azzmat

same applies on you too :)

Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 13:10 #
azzmat
Member

salam tu bhangiyoun ka counsler kaab saie baan giya haie?

Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 13:12 #
javedsheikh
Members

Sir,
What about the very founder of Pakistan?
Should I take celebrities like Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan also as 'so-called educated'?
The demand for Pakistan and Partition of India was also a Radical concept of the time.

Radicalization in its positive sense, means 'a change'.

It is flow of knowledge, urge for research and a constant struggle towards the phases of good, better and Best.

It is a desire to flush the stagnant and stinking pond.

Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 13:22 #
Salam
member

But I do appreciate Haris' effort on providing evidence/examples to support his claim-

Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 13:25 #
S.E.Mirza
Moderator

@azzmat

1-Mirza ghalib reading your post it is hard to tell if you are being a psychic or a fortune teller? You use telepathy to make posts? What kind of nonsense are you posting as analysis?
2-salam tu bhangiyoun ka counsler kaab saie baan giya haie.

Now that is going too far. No one is allowed to insult forum members.

Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 13:39 #
Mirza Ghalib
member

Look, OK, perhaps I deserve the abuse. Who knows? But still. Is someone here really calling Pakistan a "stagnant and stinking pond"? Why all this West praise when these Jew-led people at the moment have nothing in their heads except the deaths of as many Muslims as possible? The perfect diversion from their own economic woes and wholly in keeping with Zionists' hopes of establishing a Greater Israel someday.

The West is toast, when will any of you learn that? However much we may worship them, they are the wholly wrong model for Muslims to follow. As for "radicalisation", sure it means change as well, but it is never used in any positive sense when applied to the Umma.

But please to go ahead and think Tariq Ali is doing us all a favour by analysing Pakistan from the point of view of the West. And bear in mind I spoke of the "so-called" educated people in Pakistan. Those who did receive a proper education learnt very fast the West was no more than smoke and mirrors and thievery on a grand scale.

Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 13:40 #
Salam
member

no my dear the reference to "stagnant and stinking pond" means the hypocrite secularists, the remnants of colonial rulers-

Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 13:44 #
Mirza Ghalib
member

Thank you. I breathe more easily. I've encountered so much anti-Pakistan stuff already on this blog, I never know for sure what might come next.

Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 13:49 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@azzmat: For Muslims, 'loyalty' to ALLAH ALMIGHTY, as well as those who are loyal to ALLAH ALMIGHTY matter more than 'computation' or 'logic'. Can you understand that ?

Perhaps that is too much for you to 'compute'.

Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 14:01 #
javedsheikh
Members

1. At a debating forum the twists, swings and distractions don't help to win an argument.

2. Starting from Tariq Ali's interview about the past, present and future of Pakistan, the learned scholars are trying to twist the thread from intellect to emotions.

3. It is not realistic to agree 100% with a scholar, philosopher and writer from Plato to Russell.

4. Not all but most of Tariq Ali's analysis makes sense and logic what needs to be reciprocated with facts and figures and not sarcastic expressions.

5. There are over thousands of threads and articles at the very platform of Pkpolitcs, indicating and exposing the social, political and economic stagnation of Pakistan's statecraft.

6. There are hundreds of Talk Shows at the Media where theocratic and secular participants, both, are looking for Radical changes at the stinking and stagnant social and political situation.

7. It is not honest to dodge and betray myself by behaving like ostrich just to prove Mr. Tariq Ali, wrong.

8. I cannot buy the concept that Radical Progress is not related to Muslim Umma.

Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 14:49 #
Salam
member

let us all stick to the subject which is tariq ali's interview

no need to pass judgement on fellow members, why not you tell us what you have to say about the interview?

anything on that?

Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 14:59 #
zia m
Member

The reason he moved abroad was because of witch hunt by an an army dictator.
He must be right about Zia's role in massacring of Palestinians.

Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 15:08 #
Salam
member

of course that Black September is a well known incident and still mourned by Palestinians

Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 15:17 #
Mirza Ghalib
member

Zia-ul-Haq's actions in Jordan were part of our nation's downfall. I still feel deep shame thinking of it. As for point eight of what javedsheik writes above, of course we all agree. "Radical progress" is very much the road down which the Muslim Umma has already started.

What I don't like much about Tariq Ali is the judgements he utters could very well have come out of the mouth of a west commentator as well. But as I said above, that's my opinion. No need for anyone else to share it.

On the other hand, if we know about Pakistan's "stagnant social and political situation", we also know what has caused it: Wrong, pro-west rulers and a corruption system we haven't been able to get rid of yet. Accumulating further facts and figures will hardly help.

What might help, though. is learning to define our enemies and staying as far away from them as possible.

Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 16:14 #
Patriot
Member

Learning to define our enemies and staying as far away from them as possible.
Enemies that are OVERT as well as COVERT. But I would say we should learn better to detect and define our covert foes first of all as they are the most deadly. Overt enemies are a different story altogether.

Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 16:29 #
Mirza Ghalib
member

Thank you. You put that very well, indeed.

Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 16:46 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

(7) Tariq talks against the concept of Madrassas

The words he uses;

(a) ridicules the service of Madrassas', rather than acknowledging it
(b) gives the idea that there's no need to have Madrassas where education of DEEN-e-Islam is given

I will detest this at all levels.

These Madrassas' are the only place where Pakistani people get education of DEEN-e-Islam. If they were to be wiped out, Pakistan would loose more than it can quantify.

Posted 1 year ago on 04 Mar 2010 6:46 #
pappu
Member

Haris Khan have you been educated in a madrassah?

Posted 1 year ago on 04 Mar 2010 6:51 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@pappu: No.

Posted 1 year ago on 04 Mar 2010 7:06 #
pappu
Member

Than howcome you are such an expert on what goes on a madrassah. What qualafies you to make the claims you are writing in your posts.

Posted 1 year ago on 04 Mar 2010 7:08 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@pappu: What qualifies you to write counter arguments ?

Posted 1 year ago on 04 Mar 2010 7:13 #
LalBichoo
Blocked

pappu,

hariskhan is the sole certifying authority at Discuss Forum, how dare you challenge him :)))

Posted 1 year ago on 04 Mar 2010 7:19 #
pappu
Member

Haris khan I am just posting on a discuss forum but you are writing essays about what goes on in madrassah. What is your qualification? Have you studied in a madrassah, read any books on the topic etc?

Posted 1 year ago on 04 Mar 2010 7:24 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@pappu: Can you tell me;

(a) where DEEN-e-Islam will be taught when Madrassas' are gone ?

(b) where millions of poor Pakistani people will go to study, to live, when Madrassas' are gone ?

(c) who will take care of millions of poor Pakistani people who no one cares about, when Madrassas' are gone ?

It won't be Govt. of Pakistan. Govt. has conveniently as well as consistently ignored the poor, since Pakistan was created.

You'r telling me Madrassas' should stop their service, just because you can 'say' there's something wrong with them ?

Posted 1 year ago on 04 Mar 2010 7:29 #