Can we prove existence of God logically or empirically?,If yes then, prove !

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Can we prove existence of God logically or empirically?,If yes then, prove !

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zia m
Member

Logic is not a science it falls under philosophy.Science is based on empirical evidence, experiments and observations.

Posted 1 year ago on 11 Mar 2010 15:13 #
SufiSoul
Member

zia,

What is logic to be called as science or Art????

Scientific evidences also some time come under discussions of philosophy...

anyway logic is science or Arts????

Lalbichoo,

Re-read ur post you would like to prove GOD logically or sceintifically...
First you should decide how you would like to prove GOD logically or only scientifically????
Mind it that you should be happy with LOGIC SCIENCE bfore going into such discussion..If you would like to prove it LOGICALLY............you make me write again and again same words in my posts..:(

UNDERSTAND!!!!!!!

Posted 1 year ago on 11 Mar 2010 15:32 #
NNL
member

Lalbichoo wrote

That's all you can say for the existence of your God/Allah ! :))

==========

His Existence shall be proven by the number of responses you will post trying to disprove His Existence.

Posted 1 year ago on 11 Mar 2010 15:38 #
zia m
Member

SufiSoul,
Yes, Philosophy used to deal with theology, science and even medicine, therefore it could fall under art and science.

Posted 1 year ago on 11 Mar 2010 15:54 #
SufiSoul
Member

ZIAM,

Hun aya lana thy......lolzzzz

Posted 1 year ago on 11 Mar 2010 19:12 #
zia m
Member

Sufi
You have yet to present any argument for the existence of your sky-fairy.Indulgence in semantics is not going to help your cause.
Hawai firing se kam nahi chalta.

Posted 1 year ago on 11 Mar 2010 19:53 #
SufiSoul
Member

Let the bichoo come i am bound to go out with him to search..
I think i dont have any such committment with you...
You favour my position as about having pre-requisite knowledge about a topic to discuss....???

ZARA ILMI DISCUSSION HO THO THEEK WERNA NAHI....

Posted 1 year ago on 11 Mar 2010 21:32 #
LalBichoo
Blocked

SufiSoul,

"""First you should decide how you would like to prove GOD logically or only scientifically????"""

>>>

It's totally up to you, my theist friend :)

BTW I'm just wondering why you didn't read the title of this thread which says all ! :)) i.e. "Can we prove existence of God logically or empirically?,If yes then, prove ! "

Posted 1 year ago on 12 Mar 2010 4:11 #
LalBichoo
Blocked

NNL,

"""His Existence shall be proven by the number of responses you will post trying to disprove His Existence."""

>>>

My friend, when did I state that I want to disprove existence of God ???
I just want my theist friends to prove existence of God logically or empirically !

Posted 1 year ago on 12 Mar 2010 4:12 #
zia m
Member

"You favour my position as about having pre-requisite knowledge about a topic to discuss....???""

If it is like having a degree in Stupidity...then No.

Posted 1 year ago on 12 Mar 2010 4:54 #
ajhons
Member

My question remains.If you question the existance of GOD then you question the existance of all the prophets and their teaching.Which means you doubt the history.If there isn't any God then was there any Muhammad(PBUH).whome a lot of westren reashers put on number one personality in great people's list.What was his teaching.
If there is no God then who wrote Quran.Who were the people we called sahaba(companions of Prophet Muhammad PBUH).
What's the story of Baitu Maqdus(Aqsa mosque in Isreal).
What is the logic behind all this?

Posted 1 year ago on 12 Mar 2010 7:34 #
LalBichoo
Blocked

ajhons,

You seem to be a nice and polite person to me, Just a personal note, plzzz avoid this discussion if you are a true muslim as your Imaan will be in great danger !
You can go through the whole thread and can see so far no one has been able to logically/empirically prove the existence of God here !

====================

"""My question remains.If you question the existance of GOD then you question the existance of all the prophets and their teaching.Which means you doubt the history""

>>>>

Meray Bhai, I'm not questioning the existence of God, the fact of the matter is I don't believe in a God, I AM AN ATHEIST !

=================

"""If there isn't any God then was there any Muhammad(PBUH).whome a lot of westren reashers put on number one personality in great people's list.What was his teaching.
If there is no God then who wrote Quran.Who were the people we called sahaba(companions of Prophet Muhammad PBUH).
What's the story of Baitu Maqdus(Aqsa mosque in Isreal).
What is the logic behind all this? """

>>>>

I'm sorry but you can understand what would be the worth of all religious teachings or claims if the very foundation of religious edifice becomes questionable i.e. existence of God becomes dubious !

Posted 1 year ago on 12 Mar 2010 8:01 #
ajhons
Member

Lalbichoo bhai aap nay to mujhay sharminda kar diya meri tareef kar k.Bhai main nay discussion say shooro main admit kia that kay meri koi ziada knowledge nahi hay and Im just wanted to know what logical explanation are being given in fovour of No GOD theory.

Shayeed aap ko meri kam ilmi ka andaza ho giya tha is leye aap nay mujhay baray he piar aur mohabat say "DAFA" honay ka maswara diya hay.::))

I may not be writing in this thread but I definitly will be following it and reading your comments with special attention.
Cheers

Posted 1 year ago on 12 Mar 2010 10:02 #
LalBichoo
Blocked

"""Shayeed aap ko meri kam ilmi ka andaza ho giya tha is leye aap nay mujhay baray he piar aur mohabat say "DAFA" honay ka maswara diya hay.::))"""

>>>

I'm sorry if I've hurt you, but mine was very sincere advice :))

Coz

آگہی کا عذاب ڈس لے گا

Posted 1 year ago on 12 Mar 2010 10:20 #
ajhons
Member

Im not hurt.Not at all.Just enjoyed

And fully agreed with you.Aagahi ki Azab bohat bura dasta hay.

Posted 1 year ago on 12 Mar 2010 10:26 #
SufiSoul
Member

Lalbichoo,,

Lets start,

Every invention has always an inventor behind it.......

1.prove/give arguments that this is not a logical statment..
2.If you failed than discussion ends here..

Posted 1 year ago on 14 Mar 2010 23:19 #
LalBichoo
Blocked

SufiSoul,

Bhai, instead of trying to prove existence of God, you are asking some question, why ?
Instead of asking questions, go ahead and put forth Design Argument for the existence of God !
Haven't you read my origian posts whic says ""Can we prove existence of God logically or empirically?,If yes then, prove ! ""

Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 11:40 #
SufiSoul
Member

bichoo,,

You dont know itself the LOGIC SCIENCE how should i prove it logically against you....
You want me to prove it like black and white....

Than GOD is thier.......

If you want me to prove it logically than it is must that you are well aware of the knowledge and terminology and depth of LOGIC otherwise with an ignorant of LOGIC, logical proving is impossible.....

Do you know LOGIC is a separate science/Art...

Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 11:52 #
LalBichoo
Blocked

SufiSoul,

You need not to worry about my knowledge, just go ahead and prove existence of God logically or empirically !

http://pkpolitics.com/discuss/topic/can-we-prove-existence-of-god-through-logical-argumentsif-yes-then-prove#post-128445

"""Than GOD is thier......."""

>>>

Where ???

Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 12:03 #
nashanas
Member

Dear Lal bichoo,
First of all, I am really impressed with your research for the scientific prove of Allah. Your replies are really informative and particularly your link of Einstein as an Atheist was really informative because i believed earlier that he was not atheist. Thanks for clarifying that misunderstanding.
Your question that "Can we prove existence of God logically or empirically?, If yes then, prove! . I am sorry to say but it is illogical both scientifically and empirically. If I ask you to prove with the help arts and literature that skin is the largest organ of your body. Or to prove with help of commerce that gravitation exists?. Your answer would be NO. Because they are of different domain. You can prove it with the help of science but not with the help of arts and Literature or commerce.

As you know science is defined as “systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation”. Interestingly for both observation and experimentation, you need to depend on your 5 senses.
1. Vision
2. Hearing
3. Smell.
4. Taste
5. Touch.
Without the help of above senses you can neither observe nor experiment. So, Science totally depends on the above senses. I want to highlight that these senses are not fully reliable and they are limited to their extent. If you are in a dark room you will say there is nothing inside but once you open the light you can see everything. If you are ill, the taste sense is not working right. Same goes with Touch, smell and hearing. This is the reason Science Led to wrong decisions in early ages and till now. (For e.g The world is Flat or stationary and many more).

As you know that we Muslims believe that Holy Quran is a word of Allah. Your science has not able to prove any single prediction of Quran as wrong. They tried to do it and did but later on when they got enlightened they came to the same conclusion as offered by Holy Quran.(Be it rotation of earth and galaxy or rotation of sun and moon or formation of baby in woman womb).The challenge is still on. There are lots of examples. There are some issues which are neither yet proved by Science nor rejected. As majority is proved with the help of science, there is a strong possibility that the remaining minority will be also proved right.

The existence of Allah can’t be proved scientifically or empirically as both are not yet in a stage to address this issue because of the lack of knowledge and information. Allah is above to all the 5 senses . As Allah say in SUrah –E- Altakasur.

“Your craze, for more and more and mutual rivalry for worldly gains has made you heedless, until (In the same craze) you reach the graves. By no means soon you shall know. Again (Note it well) By no means Soon you shall know. Nay; had you known with certainity of knowledge (the end of this way of life, You would never had acted this. You shall certainly see hell. (Again note it well that) You shall most certainly see it. Then, on that day you shall certainly be called to account for the blessings and comforts of life.

Sorry to say but as per your science your ancestors were monkeys . According to our Islam our ancestors were also humans and we are the best creature of the best. It is upto you to accept monkeys as your ancestors or humans. No offense
PS: As we can't prove existense of Allah scientifically or emperically .In the same way we can't prove non existense of Allah scientifically or emperically .If yes then prove:)

Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 12:13 #
NNL
member

Sorry to say but as per your science your ancestors were monkeys . According to our Islam our ancestors were also humans and we are the best creature of the best. It is upto you to accept monkeys as your ancestors or humans. No offense
^^^^

Quote of the Day

Lol ..........

Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 20:36 #
zia m
Member

Humans like animals, need food and water to survive, they crap like animals do, they copulate like animals do, they have feelings like anger, pai and love.
The only difference is humans have highly evolved brains and with the help of memes became sociial animals.

Best of Best creation......give me a break!

Ever wonder about the flaws in human body

Painful child birth (Unlike animals)
Blind spot in vision
Back problems caused by being bipedal
Prostate gland...no useful function
Appendex...rudimentary stomach
Laryngeal nerve travelling all the way to chest and coming back to larynx..our evolution from fish.
Just a few biological mishaps in the process of evolution through natural selection.
Morons who deny Evolution deny scientific facts.
Rising ape is more worthy than a fallen angel!

Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2010 21:35 #
peterpan773
Member

The question should have been.
You either believe in the childish story of creation as was believed by very ancient people in Babylonia, Hittite, Canaan, etc. and rehashed in the Bible and the Quran or you believe in the evolution.

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2010 3:58 #
LalBichoo
Blocked

nashanas,

First of all welcome to the Discuss Forum !

Now let's analyse your post !

"""First of all, I am really impressed with your research for the scientific prove of Allah. """

>>>

That's not correct as I'm not trying to prove existence of God/Allah here :))

=============

"""Your replies are really informative and particularly your link of Einstein as an Atheist was really informative because i believed earlier that he was not atheist. """

>>>

Thanks my friend but link of Einstein was infact posted by a very well-informed member of this forum i.e. 'pappu' not by me :))

===================

"""Your question that "Can we prove existence of God logically or empirically?, If yes then, prove! . I am sorry to say but it is illogical both scientifically and empirically. If I ask you to prove with the help arts and literature that skin is the largest organ of your body. Or to prove with help of commerce that gravitation exists?. Your answer would be NO. Because they are of different domain. You can prove it with the help of science but not with the help of arts and Literature or commerce. """

>>>

Understand you are trying to say that 'existence of God' is not a subject of science i.e. God's existence can't be proven sceintifically !
However, I fail to understand how my question "is illogical both scientifically and empirically" ???
Could you please elaborate further ??

===============

"""Without the help of above (five) senses you can neither observe nor experiment. So, Science totally depends on the above senses.........This is the reason Science Led to wrong decisions in early ages and till now. (For e.g The world is Flat or stationary and many more). """

>>>

I'm sorry but we are not discussing science here !
So I'm not going to comment if sceince leads us to wrong decisions or not !

===================

"""As you know that we Muslims believe that Holy Quran is a word of Allah. Your science has not able to prove any single prediction of Quran as wrong. """

>>>

"Your science"

lolzzz

My friend, I understand science is science i.e. it's neither your(muslims) nor mine (atheists) :))
Again I'm not going to comment further on what Quran predicts or if science proves/disproves Quran as that would not be relevant to our topic of discussion!

=============

"""The existence of Allah can’t be proved scientifically or empirically as both are not yet in a stage to address this issue because of the lack of knowledge and information. Allah is above to all the 5 senses . As Allah say in SUrah –E- Altakasur"""

>>>

Thanks for conceding that "The existence of Allah can’t be proven scientifically or empirically " :))))
BTW had I been a believer of Quran, we wouldn't have been discussing existence of God :)))
What I understand you believe in your Allah becoz either you have faith in him or due to some social compulsion i.e. you were born in a muslim family and are afraid of going against what you've been taught/indoctrinated from your childhood !

===================

"""Sorry to say but as per your science your ancestors were monkeys . According to our Islam our ancestors were also humans and we are the best creature of the best. It is upto you to accept monkeys as your ancestors or humans. """

>>>

I'm sorry when did I claim that Darwin's theory of Evolution is the Ultimate Truth ???
Are we discussing Darwin or his theory of Evolution here?, I really don't think so !
I would really appreciate if we stick to the topic of this discussion i.e. 'Existence of God' !

=================

"""As we can't prove existense of Allah scientifically or emperically .In the same way we can't prove non existense of Allah scientifically or emperically ."""

>>>

Thanks again for conceding that God's existence can't be proven ! :))
So it's all the matter of faith ??? :))

ciao

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2010 5:32 #
nashanas
Member

In reply to ZIA M
"Humans like animals, need food and water to survive, they crap like animals do, they copulate like animals do, they have feelings like anger, pai and love.
The only difference is humans have highly evolved brains and with the help of memes became sociial animals.

My dear"Highly evolved brains" it is not a mere difference .It is THE difference. You can't say coal and diamonds are same because they are extracted from the same mine and the only difference is diamonds shine:). Come on man ,give me a break . You are trying to say that Humans and animals are same . I mean what is the point you want to make.

"Best of Best creation......give me a break!"

I am saying best creature of the best.

"Ever wonder about the flaws in human body"

Painful child birth (Unlike animals)
Blind spot in vision
Back problems caused by being bipedal
Prostate gland...no useful function
Appendex...rudimentary stomach
Laryngeal nerve travelling all the way to chest and coming back to larynx..our evolution from fish.
Just a few biological mishaps in the process of evolution through natural selection.

What you want to say is; there are lot of flaws in human body . My dear, the things which you consider as flaws are basically the flaws in your perception.

"Painful child birth (Unlike animals)"
Have you ever heared that because of the pain any mother decided to quit the delivery. May be because of this pain the mother loves her child like no body in the universe. your science needs to investigate the reasons:)

"Prostate gland...no useful function"
The prostate gland forms part of the male reproductive system and is responsible for the production of a clear liquid which makes up about thirty percent of the seminal fluid used to carry and protect the male sperm during intercourse.

Just a few biological mishaps in the process of evolution through natural selection.
Morons who deny Evolution deny scientific facts.

My brother your scientific facts can be misleading because of the lack of information. It has happened many times in the history and still happening.

Rising ape is more worthy than a fallen angel!
If this is true you can compare einstien by hmm Mr bean .Then it will be Rising Mr Bean will be more worthy than a fallen einstien.:)or you can write a paper in comapring the poetry of imam din and Ghalib:))

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2010 6:45 #
nashanas
Member

IN REPLY TO LAL BICHOO
Now let's analyse your post !
"""First of all, I am really impressed with your research for the scientific prove of Allah. """
>>>
That's not correct as I'm not trying to prove existence of God/Allah here :))
------------------Nashanas-------------Dear I am saying it because you are replying impressively against the posts which tends to prove it. Although it is MAIN NA MANOON strategy but still you are managing god))
=============
"""Your replies are really informative and particularly your link of Einstein as an Atheist was really informative because i believed earlier that he was not atheist. """
>>>
Thanks my friend but link of Einstein was infact posted by a very well-informed member of this forum i.e. 'pappu' not by me :))
----NASHANAS-------- good to see that you are honest enough. But your analysis on above two points is redundant: ) )
===================
"""Your question that "Can we prove existence of God logically or empirically?, If yes then, prove! . I am sorry to say but it is illogical both scientifically and empirically. If I ask you to prove with the help arts and literature that skin is the largest organ of your body. Or to prove with help of commerce that gravitation exists?. Your answer would be NO. Because they are of different domain. You can prove it with the help of science but not with the help of arts and Literature or commerce. """
>>>
Understand you are trying to say that 'existence of God' is not a subject of science i.e. God's existence can't be proven sceintifically !
However, I fail to understand how my question "is illogical both scientifically and empirically" ???
Could you please elaborate further ??
----NASHANAS---------I have elaborated enough I guess. I can try to clear your confusion if you can elaborate why you fail to understand.
===============
"""Without the help of above (five) senses you can neither observe nor experiment. So, Science totally depends on the above senses.........This is the reason Science Led to wrong decisions in early ages and till now. (For e.g The world is Flat or stationary and many more). """
>>>
I'm sorry but we are not discussing science here !
So I'm not going to comment if sceince leads us to wrong decisions or not !
----------NASHANAS--- I am not describing science, I am describing the constraints because of which, Science can’t prove the presence of Allah. In simple words I am saying “ ADRAK KA MAZA BANDAR KIA JANAY”
===================
"""As you know that we Muslims believe that Holy Quran is a word of Allah. Your science has not able to prove any single prediction of Quran as wrong. """
>>>
"Your science"
lolzzz
My friend, I understand science is science i.e. it's neither your(muslims) nor mine (atheists) :))
---NANSHANAS---Brother , I used “Your science” because you totally believe in it. If you can’t own Allah at least own what you believe: )) . I know science is science but atheists are champions of it.

Again I'm not going to comment further on what Quran predicts or if science proves/disproves Quran as that would not be relevant to our topic of discussion!
----NASHANAS------It is extremely relevant dude. Kindly look into it again. As per Iqbal
“Mehroom-e-tamasha ko phir deeda-e-beena dey
=============
"""The existence of Allah can’t be proved scientifically or empirically as both are not yet in a stage to address this issue because of the lack of knowledge and information. Allah is above to all the 5 senses . As Allah say in SUrah –E- Altakasur"""
>>>
Thanks for conceding that "The existence of Allah can’t be proven scientifically or empirically " :))))
-------NASHANAS----Dude this is what I am saying and it is because YOUR SCIENCE lacks.
BTW had I been a believer of Quran, we wouldn't have been discussing existence of God :)))
-----------NASHANAS--- I hope you will be soon: ))
What I understand you believe in your Allah becoz either you have faith in him or due to some social compulsion i.e. you were born in a muslim family and are afraid of going against what you've been taught/indoctrinated from your childhood !
---------NASHANAS----Thanks Allah , there is no social compulsion at all. I Love him , I have faith on him, He is omnipotent and omni present. Allah o Akbar.: ) ))
===================
"""Sorry to say but as per your science your ancestors were monkeys . According to our Islam our ancestors were also humans and we are the best creature of the best. It is upto you to accept monkeys as your ancestors or humans. """
>>>
I'm sorry when did I claim that Darwin's theory of Evolution is the Ultimate Truth ???
Are we discussing Darwin or his theory of Evolution here?, I really don't think so !
I would really appreciate if we stick to the topic of this discussion i.e. 'Existence of God' !
-------------Dude , these are the reasons which lead you to accept the existence of Allah.
=================
"""As we can't prove existense of Allah scientifically or emperically .In the same way we can't prove non existense of Allah scientifically or emperically ."""
>>>
Thanks again for conceding that God's existence can't be proven ! :))
So it's all the matter of faith ??? :))
------NASHAHNAS---MY DEAR FRIEND, I TRIED TO ANSWERS YOUR ANALYSIS POINT BY POINT . ALTHOUGH, LOT OF YOUR POINTS WERE BASED ON MAIN NA MANOON STRATEGY OR CRITISICM FOR THE SAKE OF CRITICISM. I WILL REQUEST YOU TO PLEASE SCIENTIFICALLY OR EMPERICALLY PROVE THE NON EXISTENCE OF ALLAH. ATLEAST CLARIFY YOUR POINT OF VIEW .OTHERWISE WE WILL KEEP DISCUSSING IT FOR NO REASON.

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2010 7:39 #
LalBichoo
Blocked

Richard Dawkins on Why Evolution Trumps Creationism - 1

Richard Dawkins on Why Evolution Trumps Creationism - 2

Richard Dawkins on Why Evolution Trumps Creationism - 3

Richard Dawkins on Why Evolution Trumps Creationism - 4

Richard Dawkins on Why Evolution Trumps Creationism - 5

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2010 10:24 #
zia m
Member

LB,
I just want to respond to Nashanas for his comment on evolution.I don't mean to hijack the thread.Nashanas can open a new thread for evolution vs creation myths as suggested by peterpan.

"My dear"Highly evolved brains" it is not a mere difference .It is THE differece.

As long as you believe the brain is "evolved" i don't have a problem......Thanks

"May be because of this pain the mother loves her child like no body in the universe. your science needs to investigate the reasons:)

Don't you think that a Merciful God intended women to suffer from labor pains to make them love their babies is kind of idiotic to say the least.Why don't you join your christian brothers and blame it on original sin.
Don't you think the rest of animal kingdom also have love and care for their offspring.

On prostate i meant to say the design is useless my bfault for not making it clear.
" In human males, the urethra passes right through the prostate gland, a gland very prone to infection and subsequent enlargement. This blocks the urethra and is a very common medical problem in males. Putting a collapsible tube through an organ that is very likely to expand and block flow in this tube is not good design. Any **** with half a brain (or less) could design male "plumbing" better."

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/jury-rigged.html

In the past Catholics used to deny science, but seems like they have learned their lessons.The Catholic Church has accepted the facts of Evolution, but Muslim Mullas have not gotten their act together.
If you want to discuss Evolution please open a separate thread. Thanks

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2010 15:19 #
zia m
Member

"I WILL REQUEST YOU TO PLEASE SCIENTIFICALLY OR EMPERICALLY PROVE THE NON EXISTENCE OF ALLAH."

One can't disprove the existence of Allah, however one also can't disprove existence of Zeus, Thor or unicorn.
This reminds me of Carl Sagan's invisible dragon.

Carl Sagan's invisible dragon

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"A fire-breathing dragon lives in my garage"

Suppose I seriously make such an assertion to you. Surely you'd want to check it out, see for yourself. There have been innumerable stories of dragons over the centuries, but no real evidence. What an opportunity!

"Show me," you say. I lead you to my garage. You look inside and see a ladder, empty paint cans, an old tricycle--but no dragon.

"Where's the dragon?" you ask.

"Oh, she's right here," I reply, waving vaguely. "I neglected to mention that she's an invisible dragon."

You propose spreading flour on the floor of the garage to capture the dragon's footprints.

"Good idea," I say, "but this dragon floates in the air."

Then you'll use an infrared sensor to detect the invisible fire.

"Good idea, but the invisible fire is also heatless."

You'll spray-paint the dragon and make her visible.

"Good idea, but she's an incorporeal dragon and the paint won't stick."

And so on. I counter every physical test you propose with a special explanation of why it won't work.

Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists? Your inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true. Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value they may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder. What I'm asking you to do comes down to believing, in the absence of evidence, on my say-so.

The only thing you've really learned from my insistence that there's a dragon in my garage is that something funny is going on inside my head. You'd wonder, if no physical tests apply, what convinced me. The possibility that it was a dream or a hallucination would certainly enter your mind. But then, why am I taking it so seriously? Maybe I need help. At the least, maybe I've seriously underestimated human fallibility........................................
....
http://www.users.qwest.net/~jcosta3/article_dragon.htm

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2010 20:07 #
nashanas
Member

Dear Zia m, I was reading your reply and i kept on reading(the whole long story) in the thirst that you would admit that you were wrong regarding the animal and human comparision but it all went invain. As per Iqbal" har sama rast har kas cheez naist"(Every year is not attuned to the word of truth).
Regarding your point of the labor pain and merciful Allah.No doubt Allah is the most merciful . I knew you will get back with this explaination therefore i started this sentence with MAY BE.I mean it may be one of the reason(The other reasons are yet to be identified by your science) as per human psychology the things which you get easily are less worthier than the things which you get after pain and efforts. Come on man stop comparing man with animals . I am afraid in later thread you will say giraffe has longer necks and why human dont have the ones.

One more thing do you believe on races. Atleast in dogs you can see different breeds german Shephard ,german pinscher e.t.c which clealry shows the individuality of every race. I am still waiting for your comment on apes as ancestors of humans.Do you still believe on it.

One can't disprove the existence of Allah
NASHANAS___Thanks you admit it atleast
, however one also can't disprove existence of Zeus, Thor or unicorn._______NASHANAS______I guess you should start a sepratae thread to discuss it. Pls stop believing solely on your 5 senses. In cinema , you see different things on the screen happening just infront of it doesnot mean things are happening . Naina thug laein gay:)))

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Mar 2010 4:48 #
cogitoergosum
Blocked

nashanas,

My friend it would be nice if you use inverted commas, or any other characters to seperate your comments from others.
It's really hard to understand your above post !

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Mar 2010 11:21 #
Salam
member

nashanas

good work, indeed. i enjoyed it and learned from it.

the stance of atheist that "the prove of existence of creator lies with you" can not be qualified as a default stance.

i mean that a person denying that an object lying in front of him was created is not a position by default, he has to prove that this object came into existence by itself, by default we can only say that someone brought the object here.

so the burden of proof lies with atheists who are still investigating the creations to understand various relationships, they have to prove how these objects came in to existence by themselves and the relationships coming into existence by themselves

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Mar 2010 11:36 #
cogitoergosum
Blocked

nashanas & Salam,

I'm LalBichoo, and I'll give you my feedback once my original ID is restored !

Salam, I wish you'd read my original post i.e. ""Can we prove existence of God logically or empirically?,If yes then, prove ! ""

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Mar 2010 11:42 #
Salam
member

i wish if you'd read my post above stating that the burden of proof lies with the one who rejects reality, atheist has to explain where the 'matter' came from-

from reality i can only say that matter can not create itself and depends on creator for its creation-

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Mar 2010 15:03 #
hamara pakistan
Member

If a person opposes even the possibility of there being a God, then any evidence can be rationalized or explained away. It is like if someone refuses to believe that people have walked on the moon, then no amount of information is going to change their thinking. Photographs of astronauts walking on the moon, interviews with the astronauts, moon rocks...all the evidence would be worthless, because the person has already concluded that people cannot go to the moon.

Does God exist? The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today.
Many examples showing God's design could be given, possibly with no end. But here are a few:

The Earth...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.3 Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.

The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day.

And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet our massive oceans are restrained from spilling over across the continents.

Water...colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it. Plants, animals and human beings consist mostly of water (about two-thirds of the human body is water). You'll see why the characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life:

It has an unusually high boiling point and freezing point. Water allows us to live in an environment of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees.

Water is a universal solvent. This property of water means that thousands of chemicals, minerals and nutrients can be carried throughout our bodies and into the smallest blood vessels.5

Water is also chemically neutral. Without affecting the makeup of the substances it carries, water enables food, medicines and minerals to be absorbed and used by the body.

Water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees.

Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.

Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.

The human brain...simultaneously processes an amazing amount of information. Your brain takes in all the colors and objects you see, the temperature around you, the pressure of your feet against the floor, the sounds around you, the dryness of your mouth, even the texture of your keyboard. Your brain holds and processes all your emotions, thoughts and memories. At the same time your brain keeps track of the ongoing functions of your body like your breathing pattern, eyelid movement, hunger and movement of the muscles in your hands.

The human brain processes more than a million messages a second.7 Your brain weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively unimportant. This screening function is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your world. The brain functions differently than other organs. There is an intelligence to it, the ability to reason, to produce feelings, to dream and plan, to take action, and relate to other people.

The eye...can distinguish among seven million colors. It has automatic focusing and handles an astounding 1.5 million messages -- simultaneously.
Evolution focuses on mutations and changes from and within existing organisms. Yet evolution alone does not fully explain the initial source of the eye or the brain -- the start of living organisms from nonliving matter.

2. Does God exist? The universe had a start - what caused it?
Scientists are convinced that our universe began with one enormous explosion of energy and light, which we now call the Big Bang. This was the singular start to everything that exists: the beginning of the universe, the start of space, and even the initial start of time itself.

Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow, a self-described agnostic, stated, "The seed of everything that has happened in the Universe was planted in that first instant; every star, every planet and every living creature in the Universe came into being as a result of events that were set in motion in the moment of the cosmic explosion...The Universe flashed into being, and we cannot find out what caused that to happen."

Steven Weinberg, a Nobel laureate in Physics, said at the moment of this explosion, "the universe was about a hundred thousands million degrees Centigrade...and the universe was filled with light."

The universe has not always existed. It had a start...what caused that? Scientists have no explanation for the sudden explosion of light and matter.

3. Does God exist? The universe operates by uniform laws of nature. Why does it?
Much of life may seem uncertain, but look at what we can count on day after day: gravity remains consistent, a hot cup of coffee left on a counter will get cold, the earth rotates in the same 24 hours, and the speed of light doesn't change -- on earth or in galaxies far from us.

How is it that we can identify laws of nature that never change? Why is the universe so orderly, so reliable?

"The greatest scientists have been struck by how strange this is. There is no logical necessity for a universe that obeys rules, let alone one that abides by the rules of mathematics. This astonishment springs from the recognition that the universe doesn't have to behave this way. It is easy to imagine a universe in which conditions change unpredictably from instant to instant, or even a universe in which things pop in and out of existence."

Richard Feynman, a Nobel Prize winner for quantum electrodynamics, said, "Why nature is mathematical is a mystery...The fact that there are rules at all is a kind of miracle."

4. Does God exist? The DNA code informs, programs a cell's behavior.

All instruction, all teaching, all training comes with intent. Someone who writes an instruction manual does so with purpose. Did you know that in every cell of our bodies there exists a very detailed instruction code, much like a miniature computer program? As you may know, a computer program is made up of ones and zeros, like this: 110010101011000. The way they are arranged tell the computer program what to do. The DNA code in each of our cells is very similar. It's made up of four chemicals that scientists abbreviate as A, T, G, and C. These are arranged in the human cell like this: CGTGTGACTCGCTCCTGAT and so on. There are three billion of these letters in every human cell!!

Well, just like you can program your phone to beep for specific reasons, DNA instructs the cell. DNA is a three-billion-lettered program telling the cell to act in a certain way. It is a full instruction manual.

Why is this so amazing? One has to ask....how did this information program wind up in each human cell? These are not just chemicals. These are chemicals that instruct, that code in a very detailed way exactly how the person's body should develop.

Natural, biological causes are completely lacking as an explanation when programmed information is involved. You cannot find instruction, precise information like this, without someone intentionally constructing it.

And take this quote for granted...:)

The worst moment for the atheist is when he is really thankful, and has nobody to thank.
Dante Gabriel Rossetti

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Mar 2010 18:35 #
zia m
Member

""Dear Zia m, I was reading your reply and i kept on reading(the whole long story) in the thirst that you would admit that you were wrong regarding the animal and human comparision but it all went invain"..........................

If you are referring to prostate, how could you have missed my admission."On prostate i meant to say the design is useless my fault for not making it clear."

Nashanas, you wrote "(The other reasons are yet to be identified by your science)"

Humans because of evolution have bigger brains and a bigger head in newborns cause painful child birth.
You conveniently overlooked the rest of imperfections.

"""One can't disprove the existence of Allah
NASHANAS___Thanks you admit it atleast"

Can you point out where i said that i don't believe in a Creator?....

http://pkpolitics.com/discuss/topic/what-i-believe#post-130348
My belief is purely based on intuition, reason or empirical evidence has nothing to do with it.
The only plausible argument for a creating Force is "Fine Tuning of the Universe Argument".

"I am still waiting for your comment on apes as ancestors of humans.Do you still believe on it"...................

I believe humans are aslo apes.Are you happy now?

I suggest you should try to read and understand the theory of Evolution.Holy Scriptures are not books of science and one should not take the literal meaning of verses.
The earth is 4.5 billion years old it would be stupid to think it came into existence 6 or 8000 years ago.

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Mar 2010 0:53 #
lota6177
Members

wrong thread sorry.

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Mar 2010 6:04 #
zia m
Member

lota,
Yes,you are right.Most of us have never studied it, the ones who know science feel it is a threat to their religious beliefs.
Amongst the developed countries US is most religious, they have highest number (40% same as Turkey) don't believe in Evolution.

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Mar 2010 6:16 #
lota6177
Members

Anyone who studies evolution will realize that there is nothing to debate. Only people I see debating evolution are the ones who have actually not studied it in detail.

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Mar 2010 6:20 #
Salam
member

theory of evolution is in evolution itself, but some how it imposed a conclusion long long time ago and then kept on bending, twisting and evolving to justify that 'conclusion'

it has history of flaws but its worshipers believe in it blindly

Posted 1 year ago on 19 Mar 2010 2:53 #
zia m
Member

"theory of evolution is in evolution itself, but some how it imposed a conclusion long long time ago and then kept on bending, twisting and evolving to justify that 'conclusion'----
One of the most ignorant statements i have come across.
Science is based on doubt, only a scientist is happy to admit when proven wrong, quite contrary to faith.

Posted 1 year ago on 19 Mar 2010 6:27 #
shehmir
Member

Reply: Zia m

***Science is based on doubt, only a scientist is happy to admit when proven wrong***

Unless if it is a deliberate falsehood, just do a search on scientific forgeries.

***quite contrary to faith***

Hence there is no faith in Islam. Religion and faith are two terms used commonly by Muslims but neither are accurate translations of words ‘Deen’ and ‘Imaan’ respectively.

Posted 1 year ago on 21 Mar 2010 7:18 #
shehmir
Member

Reply: Lota6177

The topic is: proving the existence of God. The rational arguments, those that would prove the existence of God - the rational arguments can usually be put into one of 3 categories:

The ontological,
The cosmological, and
The teleological arguments

Without dealing with any of them right now I can tell you that they are all faulty. They don't prove the existence of God. The arguments were proven to be faulty 200 years ago atleast, if not 800 years ago, but they continue to be used. You will still see them printed in abundance - one of these 3 arguments [as has been tried here as well]. In the first place the argument which attempts to prove the existence of God is self-contradictory. God is said to be Absolute, which means He depends on nothing. Proving His existence means we make some more basic assumption and we build up to God, in which place God fails to be Absolute, He depends on our basic assumptions, you see. So it's a foolish kind of project in the first place. You assume you have an absolute, and then you go ahead and try to prove it, and you undo your definition. One produces a proof for a theorem which says it doesn't have a proof.

God is not a theorem based on some assumptions. Rather, God is a necessary item to complete our picture of reality. More accurately, I mean to say that, if we make the assumption that the Universe makes sense then we simultaneously acknowledge the singularity in the scheme which is the absolute - that which is independent of the total concept of the scheme. And there are two ways to seeing this. They are the results of the work done by the 20th Century mathematician going by the name of Kurt Godel, and you can look him up for an account. There are popular books on the subject; The Scientific American did an article on him a few years ago. In 1931 Kurt Godel came up with two theories that really shook the world of philosophy, logic and mathematics.

Continued here:

Transcript of the original lecture is available here, [but is missing the question answer session].

http://www.lecture-transcripts.com/2010/01/islam-nature-of-belief.html

Other lectures by Brother Gary Miller [will answer objections normally raised by people].

http://nadeem.lightuponlight.com/indexaudios3.html#Gary_Miller

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=gary+miller+jesus+image&search_type=&aq=f

Posted 1 year ago on 21 Mar 2010 7:33 #
shehmir
Member

Reply to those who says Muslims don't acknowledge evolution [but just like with any other issue of such nature, the first question to be asked is what do you mean when you say 'Evolution'].

Here's an interesting book [I'll post other information later on this subject].

What is the Origin of Man?
The Answers of Science and the Scriptures

http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/MB_OM/default.htm

Posted 1 year ago on 21 Mar 2010 8:28 #
zia m
Member

"Unless if it is a deliberate falsehood, just do a search on scientific forgeries. ""

I never said scientists are perfect, they are humans and all humans are bound to make mistakes. You have to look at the evidence and peer reviews to accept or reject any hypothesis put forward.

Are you saying there is no equivalent for "Imaan"?
How do you define it?

BTW:If you are a fan of Buccaillism, here is nice article by Ziauddin Sardar.

http://www.ziauddinsardar.com/articles.htm

Posted 1 year ago on 21 Mar 2010 9:11 #
shehmir
Member

Reply Zia:

** I never said scientists are perfect, they are humans and all humans are bound to make mistakes. **

To begin with there is a difference between mistake and deliberate falsehood. Anyways it's beside the point here.

**You have to look at the evidence and peer reviews to accept or reject any hypothesis put forward. **

Agreed

*** Are you saying there is no equivalent for "Imaan"? *** *** BTW:If you are a fan of Buccaillism, ***

Of course you didnt bother to read/listen to the articles/lectures that I provided. Because answer to both your points were already discussed there.

*** How do you define it? ***

The root meaning translated 'believe' (amana) has the fundamental meaning, 'confirm' or 'verify'. In some cases the Straight Path, which is sought by Muslims, is a result of elimination. If, for example, a creed tells a congregation what they must believe, the congregation should ask for a justification; not just sign up. If the creed says such and such, the believer should say, "why should I? Show me why". The Qur'an repeatedly warns against believing in something for which there is no warrant. Faith in Islam, then, is not a pledge, it is not a promise to believe something, but it is a conviction. So verification is really the first point of salvation. [Gary Miller - Nature of Belief]

http://www.lecture-transcripts.com/2010/01/islam-nature-of-belief.html

--------------------------------------------------------

As to Maurice Braucille's book, I wasn't refering to his book Bible, Quran and Science. As has been clearly stated before it was reply to those who allege [and as has been done on this forum as well] that Muslims don't acknowledge evolution. And the answer to your article has already been given in lectures I recommended. Wasn't trying to prove Quran by comparing it's compatibality with science.

The alternative method;

It must be stressed here that the Qur'an is accurate about many, many things, but accuracy does not necessarily mean that a book is a divine revelation. In fact, accuracy is only one of the criteria for divine revelations. For instance, the telephone book is accurate, but that does not mean that it is divinely revealed. The real roblem lies in that one must establish some proof of the source the Qur'an's information. The emphasis is on the reader. One cannot simply deny the Qur'an's authenticity without sufficient proof. If, indeed, one finds a mistake, then he has the right to disqualify it. This is exactly what the Qur'an encourages.

The real certainty about the truthfulness of the Qur'an is evident in the confidence which is prevalent throughout it; and this confidence comes from a different approach - "Exhausting the Alternatives." In essence, the Qur'an states, "This book is a divine revelation; if you do not believe that, then what is it?" In other words, the reader is challenged to come up with some other explanation. Here is a book made of paper and ink. Where did it come from? It says it is a divine revelation; if it is not, then what is its source? The interesting fact is that no one has with an explanation that works. In fact, all alternatives have bee exhausted.

However, Critics are too quick to grab hold of something, give it an interpretation, and then offer it as an excuse to escape the reality of this document.

[Gary Miller - Amazing Quran and Basis of Muslim Belief]

Complete lectures here;

http://www.themodernreligion.com/essays_Gary_Miller.htm

http://members.multimania.co.uk/islamonrise/amazing_q.html

Posted 1 year ago on 21 Mar 2010 12:54 #
zia m
Member

Shehmir,

"To begin with there is a difference between mistake and deliberate falsehood.""

I used the word mistake because i don't claim to know their intentions to accuse them of falsehood.
But if a scholar or scientist is receiving funding from Templeton foundation, some corporation or Saudis, of course they will have less credibility.

Gary Miller seems to be a reasonable person.He has taken Spinoza's God and extended it to a singularity instead of nature or the Universe itself.It is an intersting concept but i fail to understand how he can turn it into a personal God.I don't know if you read any of my previous posts or not, because my concept of God is a Supreme Power that controls all the Universal Constants of Physics, it is very similar to Spinoza but it can also work in case there are multiverses. I am unable to find any evidence of a personal god.

This thread is about proof of exitence of god or gods.I believe you agree there is no such proof.

As far other issues such as evolution or miracles are concerned.I think you need to open a separate thread for them.

Posted 1 year ago on 22 Mar 2010 4:47 #
shehmir
Member

***I used the word mistake because i don't claim to know their intentions to accuse them of falsehood.***

I don’t think so you will disagree that Pitdown man is
regarded as a forgery. Forgery by definition means deliberate deception. That is just one example.

*** Gary Miller seems to be a reasonable person. He has taken Spinoza's God and extended it to a singularity instead of nature or the Universe itself. It is an interesting concept but I fail to understand how he can turn it into a personal God ***

Of course you will fail to understand if you don’t bother to listen to rest of the lectures, where he explains that very point of yours.

** .I don't know if you read any of my previous posts or not, because my concept of God is a Supreme Power that controls all the Universal Constants of Physics, it is very similar to Spinoza but it can also work in case there are multiverses ***

I never said you don’t believe in a supreme power.

** This thread is about proof of exitence of god or gods.I believe you agree there is no such proof. ***

I don’t think so that requires any explanation after my reply to lota6177.

Posted 1 year ago on 22 Mar 2010 13:03 #
zia m
Member

"I don’t think so that requires any explanation after my reply to lota6177"

I don't know what you are trying to prove.
I have listened to the links you provided and got the impression that majority of Muslims do not understand Quran.
Gary Miller is an intelligent individual, nowhere in his talks he has denied evolution.

Like i said before, feel free to open a thread on any topic you wish.
This thread is about the proof of existence of God.

Nostradamus has made more predictions than any prophet that i know of.Does that mean i should start believing in Nostradamus?

Posted 1 year ago on 22 Mar 2010 14:24 #
shehmir
Member

** I don't know what you are trying to prove. **

I am not trying to prove anything.

** I have listened to the links you provided and got the impression that majority of Muslims do not understand Quran. **

First of all there is a difference between 'do not understand Quran' and 'making an effort to understand it'. That’s a separate discussion though.

The links I provided includes about 20 different lectures, average length of each being one and a half hour [i.e. about 30 hours in total]. It’s hardly been 30 hours since I have posted the links. Don’t tell me you have been listening to Gary Miller for the past 30 hours without taking any rest or sleep.

You know what funny that's the second time in two months that two people have said this to me. Last time the person listened to 30 hours talk in less than 24 hours. Anyways;

** Gary Miller is an intelligent individual, nowhere in his talks he has denied evolution. **

That’s precisely why I asked you to listen to him.

And where did I claim he has denied evolution, in fact neither did I myself at any point denied evolution. The first chapter of the book [What is the Origin of Man] that I provided is on evolution, please read carefully as to what it has to say.

** Like I said before, feel free to open a thread on any topic you wish. **

I never meant to discuss evolution in this thread [or any other topic].

All I was trying to get at was that it is widely claimed that Muslims deny evolution, which isn’t a true statement; rather it would be more appropriate to say there are those amongst Muslims who deny it but not of them do.

Only trying to tell certain people please don’t go about painting all people [Muslims in this case] with the same brush.

I hope I won’t have to repeat myself.

** Nostradamus has made more predictions than any prophet that i know of. Does that mean i should start believing in Nostradamus? **

After all you don’t follow the principles you yourself lay and I quote ‘This thread is about the proof of existence of God. **

And when did I say you should follow any Prophet because he made so many correct predictions.

Of course you never bothered to listen to the lectures because of those 30 hours lecture there is only a handful of statements that is about predictions [as far as I can recall]. So don’t know what was the point of mentioning it here.

Btw just for your knowledge Prophet is not the correct translation of Arabic word ‘Nabi’ either. But that’s a different discussion all together, for the time being I’ll leave it here.

Here are the lectures I am talking about, just in case you over looked.

http://nadeem.lightuponlight.com/indexaudios3.html#Gary_Miller

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=gary+miller+jesus+image&search_type=&aq=f

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=gary+miller+jesus+image&aq=f

Peace

Posted 1 year ago on 22 Mar 2010 18:17 #