irfanx
Member
What do you think, he is a student at oxford still studying and he is 19 years old. If PPP wins in election we would have a 19 year old Prime Minister?
PPP has declared that Bhutto element is gonna be important in deciding the next heir of PPP because it had the power to draw voters and keep the thread alive that bounds PPP in the four provinces.
Your comments on the next heir Bilawal?
gigabyte3d
Member
He is too vulnerable to be the next PM of Pakistan. His dad will be the brains behind his leadership if he does win in the elections.
However, I think we should give him a chance and see what happens, it might just work.
hasheesh
Member
Its a shame he cant speak urdu. press conf in english...
I have a feeling his written statement was a bit longer but he got a bit emotional and cut it short.
and no bismillah be4 starting lol thats a big no no in a pakistani press conference. oh well he has a lot of time to learn
and name changed to bilawal "bhutto" zaradi, that made me lol, but a good decision nonetheless
Gul
Member
well, this just means that zardari will be the linchpin of the party....now mr. 10% is a legitimate figure in pk politics, and has the sympathy of the nation too...
this nation does not seem like it will be on the path to progress anytime soon. political parites do not work on a meritocratic system, only name and the bloodline counts. all those party workers who were in the country, and were at the forefront of the resistance movment against musharraf cannot stand up and be counted at this moment in time. and if this is what works for pakistan, and pakistani people, i.e., if without the bhutto name the party was going to fall apart, then the spirit of democracy is still far, far away from us.
hasheesh
Member
the problem is not that people are not ready for democracy the problem is that when democracy doesnt produce results we want, we think that people are not ready for it.
democracy is the will of the majority and if the majority demands a bhutto last name, so be it.it shouldnt matter if you or me or some general doesn't agree with them.
Spartacus
Member
It looks more like a FAMILY BUSINESS than a party leadership. It's just so typical for countries where most leaders are still treated like kings and their mandates like dynasty ruling. So easy to manipulate people in some areas of the world... Easy to stir hate for others and get a lot of adulation by an overemotional public. Enjoyable adventure for some leaders to act the politician in a troubled environment where it takes so little to be an idol.I feel pity for the people who are happy with the play politicians perform and don't search for the truth. Particularly for those who have been living in Pakistan and could know more accurately what exactly their politicians did for them.
secular_pakistan
Blocked
Hasheesh,
Democracy doesn't mean whatever lallu panju is selected by the majority wins. The sole purpose of democracy is that it is MEANT to provide governments that are accountable, and, governments that address all the relevant issues in the right manner and select the correct policies. It works on the assumption that if they don't do that, the people will not select/vote them or throw them out. There is nothing divine about democracies, it's just that they are meant to provide the best governments and that people will choose the best governments, which really means that people will choose the best or the correct policies, manifetoes etc.
The fact that leadership is chosen/voted on BLOODLINE, is entirely contradictory to the basic principle of democracy, which negates individuals, names, bloodlines etc etc and go for policies and issues. If people and parties are choosing Bhuttos and Sharifs and Chaudhrys and Wali Khans, rather than choosing lets say the party with the business, for example health, educational, economic, security policies, then it serves no purpose having a "democracy"
that is more like a cult, and, less like a political party
and the guy is a 19 year old who probably doesn't even know much about pakistan, I fail to see what leadership he will provide. it will be a good 10 or 15 years before he can even begin to act as the chairperson that he has already been made.
the politics in our country is pathetic.
Its a good decision for the party in present circumstances but it is not a good decision for a country. Anyway people are emotional at this moment but later they could have problems in digesting the name of bilawal bhutto ZARDARI(10%)
1. This is not a big deal to be so critical and upset.
2. The decision to accept Bilawal Bhutto as chairperson is very much 'Democratic' as 100% of PPP followers, approved and endorsed this 'Strategy'.
3. It will take time for PPP to maintain its attraction without Bhutto factor.
4. What about all other political parties?
TI without Imran Khan?
PML (N) without Nawaz Sharif?
PML (Q) without Musharaf in the back and the label of Qauid-i-Azam in the bracket?
NAP (P) without Mahmud Achakzai?
(Original Muslim League without the Qauid-i-Azam, in 1946).
5. The personality and image of charismatic leaders always play an important role in modern Democracies.
(Party of 'Abraham Lincoln', Party of Roosevelt, Party of Churchill, Party of Nehru. Party of Mao)
6. There would have been no Movement for the Restoration of the Judiciary, without the Personality of Mr. Justice Ch. Iftikhar.
7. How and why, A.Q. Khan, still, is worshipped as a 'Hero' even after publically accepting for his 'corruption'? We overlooked to name him as Mr. 100%.
8. Mr. Bilawal Bhutto, even as a young student at the age of 19 , looks to be better orator than 'leaders' like Ch. Pervez Elahi, Sh. Rashid, Sher Afghan, Wasi Zafar.
8. There is no answer to an objection like:
ATTA GHOODHATI HILTI KYOON HAI?
andarkabandar
Members
i think most of u ppl r jealous or just too scared give him a chance. we know how to b-i-t-i-c-h and whine very well
the guy needs a chance. there have been leaders younger than him in history.
he is only a face at the moment like a constitutinal monarch or something.
he will be a good leader. he needs a chance.
Gul
Member
Hasheesh
I have the same thoughts as secular-pakistan on the issue of democracy. Voting for names or bloodlines, instead of on issues, (be it intra-party, or inter-party) does not represent the spirit of democracy. A life chairperson of a party, for example, cannot be held accountable, and therefore is against the very essence of democracy.
This is the very reason so called democracy in our country does not deliver per expectations. And why do you think we never see new faces in politics? The simple reason is that autocratic political leadership of the existing parties does not let a second line leadership, that can in time take over, develop. The top leadership of every party ensures that there is no democratic process by which people can come up based on their merit. The top ensures this to preserve dynastic characteristics of the party, and gives out "bakhsheesh" to other party members based on their loyalty.
People of Pakistan have been, by and large, conditioned to accept the status quo (of dynastic political parties) - and so, they go on blindly accepting the same family to lead a party. Do they really expect these leaders to deliver?
This is why I say Pakistan is very far from genuine democracy.
hasheesh
Member
u cant hold peoples finger and teach them how to walk. let them learn by their own mistakes by falling. had BB been allowed to complete her previous two terms PPP would not be so popular now. now by killing her they have made her a legend so its very natural that the cult followers will follow her son.
the genuine democracy u talk about cannot be taught in a classroom. just let the process work with its faults it will correct itself. the most important thing now should be to let the future governments complete their terms and hold elections on proper time.
In this country it doesn't take long for people to switch loyalties. If PPP comes in power and their is corruption and hunger in the country they wont get elected next time. the problem is when a general jumps in before they can complete their term and next election can be held.
ps: even in the countries which we would label "genuine democracies" there is this cult following trend. people supporting hillary are doing that just because of her husband. she has no governance record of her own.
Gul
Member
you have a valid point about completing a term. i'm totally for it, and really there is nothing else to do but let people learn by their mistakes. let's see, who knows what the future holds....
the hillary question, however, is very different:
she may have benefitted from the limelight, and exposure of being a president's wife, but you have to admit that her own credentials are impeccable; afterall, why couldn't the countless other first ladies of the U.S. run for president?
You have to differentiate between her and what happens in many asian countries:
the democrat party leadership did not pass from her husband to her;
she did not get nominated or "appointed" as the next presidential nominee;
she has been in the legal and political fields for a very long time;
is a senator in her own right, and is having to have a dog fight with all the other contenders of the democratic party nomination.
For her short biographies, see the following links.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillary_Clinton
http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/firstladies/hc42.html
Hasheesh, there's a world of difference.
hasheesh
Member
the bushs the kennedys the dynastic lineages are everywhere...
about hillary , being a senator really isn't a big plus in american presidential race. the front runners are almost always governors. in hillarys case the achievments are just a proposed medical plan which was never implemented and highly criticized and flip flopping on all political issues. she is pro war one day anti war the next. her biggest qualification is being the wife of bill clinton. lol i listen to sean hannity everyday you dont want to talk about hillary with me
Gul
Member
like i said, she did benefit from the exposure, but nothing passed to her automatically.
and to an extent (like in the case of bush and kennedy names), being in a political family helps tremendously (just like being in a business family), you learn the ropes, you make the contacts, you have the financial backing. because of these factors, IT HELPS. But there are no heir apparents, and nothing passes automatically to anyone.
The political background, and learned acumen, environment, all HELP. And there's nothing wrong with that. But family members of a political leader/ president have to fight in an open field. That's the difference.
hasheesh
Member
if she wasn't related to bill clinton she would never even be a senator leave alone being in presidential race.
after talking with the american voters her biggest qualifications are:
1. being a woman
2. being wife of bill clinton
oh and btw http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._political_families
the democratic system is better, yes. but perfect , no.
Gul
Member
totally agree with all your comments above. many people all over the world are in politics because of family background and other factors. but they do not INHERIT a mantle. please let's agree on this, which is the differnce.
hasheesh
Member
ok but only coz u said please ,lol
Gul
Member
hmmm, i should have said please in other debates with you instead of long arguments...lol
but atleast i've won you over...lol
irfanx
Member
Well he is willing to be a mayrtar. I think that is enough qualification in Pakistan`s Politics to be a Leader. Besides we need some people who can die for something other then the religion ;)
secular_pakistan
Blocked
Hillary Clinton is not a 19 year old kid who cannot even properly speak their own native language.
People say if ZA Bhutto stood a dog in the elections, people would vote for the dog. There is a big difference between being inspired and impressed and led by persons and personalities to some extent, and, making dynasties/bloodlines the only or the biggest measure and judgement tool.
Can someone please explain to me how this kid is better suited than Amin Fahim, Aitzaz Ahsan, Raza Rabbani and the 2 dozen other senior leaders?
Also, please do not refer to the US democracy. The US democracy is a disgrace to geniune democracies around the world. I am a big fan of true democracy and democratisation, of everything. I am a big believer in law, in secularism, in so many western principles. But the US is a disgrace to them. The US democracy is a sham, be it their foreign policy, the role of the CIA in America and around the world, the expliotation of religion, electioneering on religion, the war on terror, the cold war, the outdated electoral system, the crappy presidential system, the dumb population, the oligopolistic and pathetic media, the 30 second news flashes, the military-industrial complex, the expliotation of non-issues in electioneering, the exploitation of public fears, the lack of pluralistic government and parliament and a polarised bi-partisan political arena (as if there are only 2 views and ideologies in the world), the incompetent and ineffective congress...I Could go on for ever.
Think about it, America has some of the best scientists, businessmen, economists, philosophers, intellectuals, visionaries in the world (even though their general population is pretty dumb), yet the people running the country are nutcases. G W Bush is a perfect example, has he not been president for 8 years? Is Ronald Reagan not considered one of the great presidents? Was it not American democracy that created terrorism, funded and nurtured mullah-ism and fanaticism?
I sometimes think of what America could've achieved in the world and done for humanity had it been run by visionaries for the past 50 or so years. Its such a shame.
Also, Hillary Clinton is pretty useless. Most of the best American candidates never stand much of a chance.
As for democracy being a system that fixes itself in the long run.
No, not necessarily, I mean America has had it for 300 years still they are not a geniune democracy.
Do you really want to wait 300 years to get to where America is?
There have to be pre-requisites, there has to be pre-planning, there has to be something steer it in that direction, there has to be a strong focus on education, on economic growth and financial empowerment, there has to be a blueprint as to how to achieve democracy. There has to be DEMOCRATISATION of everything, information, education, knowledge, wealth, resources, opportunities, everything.
What kind of a democratic party decides its political future by a chairperson/king/queen/monarch's "WILL"? And, how did this Mr. 10% charachter suddenly pull out a will from his **** and hijack the biggest political party in the country?
How will a party based on the rule of one dynasty and the cult-like obsession with personalities (ZA Bhutto, BB) bring democracy?
How will voting based on sensationalism and emotions and not issues and policies ever lead to the right decisions?
To say just lets have elections and democracy will fix everything and if the judiciary is independent everything will be alright. Will Ch. Iftikhar (will all due respect to the man) will ensure kids get qulity education and youth get jobs and economy grows and the govt. has a good health policy and that monkeys are not elected to the parliament?
There is nothing in a democracy that says any of the above will be delivered. All the democracy says is people will be intelligent enough to demand and get these things out of democracy. And, I'm sorry to disappoint, but the majority of our people are not exactly Einsteins. There is nothing stopping, lets say 25 families and heads of dynasties and tribal leaders and fuedals cementing their rule in a seemingly democratic system for a very long and keeping the masses away from knowledge, education, empowerment, wealth...
Perhaps, we should look 10, 20, 50 years into the future, and, plan, think. Strategise. Develop a blueprint as to how to get where we want. And, don't expect the general population, of whom 44% cannot even read or write their own names, to do this. It is upto those who are the elite to do this. And, you and I supporting any false promises, flawed strategies, oversimplified reality and monarchs in parties, by any of the parties is not going to help.
We can get there much faster if we starch from scratch, and, develop a blueprint, a detailed strategy, and, that is implemented.
For a start, our constituition is crap anyways, I dont believe in it. It's contradictory and a load of cow-dung.
I'll give you another example. Lets say Saudi Arabia becomes a democracy (Forget for a second that their theocracy and monarchy isn't all that great either).
Will they get something out of it in lets say, 30 years?
No, the bedouns will keep voting for the same mullahs and heads of tribes and the same dumb bedouns, and, Saudi Arabias oil would run out, and, they would end up riding camels again and killing each other in the desert. Yet, the would do the same thing again and again.
Compare the Pakistani parliament from 1985 to 2002, it's virtually remained the same throughout these roughly 20 years. It wont change much even in 2008.
Also, how will we have a democracy and good governance when the biggest party is controlled by a corrupt money launderer and murderer?
hasheesh
Member
wow thats a long rant. simple answer the 19 yr old is not going to be made PM, he is just a symbol.
BB named the money launderer and murderer as her replacement so its a safe bet that she was no better then him. far as I can see nothing has changed
...except people are sad and angry and mush is a lot weaker.
also I would advise the govt. to not attempt rigging now. we have all seen what just went on in kenya
http://news.scotsman.com/latestnews/More-than-100-dead-as.3631596.jp
have some mercy on pakistan now
irfanx
Member
in todays news i saw Pakistan news on cnn and then kenya and i was sad to see the kind of resemblance it had.
it is simply a Guddi Nasheeni .
the so called champion of democracy PPP is going to follow a 19 year old kid who deosnt know about pakistan. doesnt know about politics,doesnt know how to speak urdu .....
despite the fact they have senior leaders like Amin Faheem,Raza Rabbani,Aitezaz Ahsan,Nisar Khoro,Qaim Ali Shah etc.
that simply shows the fact that they are not a democratic party.
it is a gudda nasheeni.
thats why as a political gimmickery ...zardari withdraws his name with his kids ...
actaully just for the sake of power thier mom dies
just for the sake of power ,thier father deprived them with thier own biological father name ...
thast the real tragedy ,that has happened to the kids of BB.
i feel sorry for Bilawal ,Bakhtawer and Aseefa.
Dervaish
Member
Bilawal Bhutto in today's bGuardian,
http://www.guardian.co.uk/
Gul
Member
secular-pakistan
too long man...
we're saying the same things: genuine democracy is not possible in pakistan for the foreseeable futre (given political parties are not democratic). Nobody is arguing with that. However, there may be a lot wrong with the u.s.a. but it IS a democracy. You can't say it's NOT a democracy. But that's the nub of the matter. Democracy in itself is obviously not an automatic cure for everything! Democracy is just a form of government that CAN give maximum power to people. What they do with this empowerment is another matter.
Has democracy wiped out corruption in India? Has it wiped out poverty from U.S.A.?
But this is the only system that will allow for people to make their lot better if they can, if they want, if they're able, if they're allowed. There are a lot of ifs, and all these ifs are missing in Pakistani conditions today, many missing from many other countries. But it's still the only known system that might work over time.
There will be no change in the attitude of the opponents, if PPP elects its chairperson according to their 'wishes'.
The opponents sticking to their pole would come up with other objections and arguments.
" ATTA GHOODHTI, HILTI KYOON HAI'.
The ‘selection’, 'election' or 'nomination' of Bilawal Bhutto was unanimously approved by the Central Committee, so it is very much DEMOCRATIC.
Looks very strange, where those who tolerated a ‘rubber stamp’ Parliament for 5 years, came up to exercise ‘Democracy’ within PPP.
There have been leaders and rulers, who knew very little about Urdu, Pakistan Culture and religion and were declared as 'Kafir'.
He is not contesting for PM or Presidential position.
His presence could help to keep the Bhutto Factor alive, a logical requirement in a society, where emotions play a vital role.
I feel PPP had no other choice, when Sanam Bhutto and other members of the family declined to accept the responsibility.
I guess, still at the age of 19, he talks better than Pervez Elahi, Wasi Zafar, Sheikh Rashid, Sher Afhgan, Ch. Shujaat.
Just examine the infra-structure of all other parties, also.
I appreciate the wise decision to nominate Mr Makhdoom Fahim to contest for PM.
Gul
Member
sorry Javedsheikh, your arguments don't make sense. none of us agreed with a rubber stamped parliament for 5 years. nor would we have come up with any objections, had the party been seen to follow a spirit of democracy with regard to nomination of the chairperson. This is rubbish.
And it may be 'logical' in the party's dynastic interest to transfer chairmanship via a will and inheritence, but it is completely undemocratic.
A will was read out appointing the next chairman, and next primeministerial nominee. The CEC was then asked to endorse...and in their forty year tradition, they did as they were told. And you call this democracy...don't make me laugh.
This takes us back to 2002 parliment,when Musharraf had no qualm Amin Fahim becoming PM.
BB had not allowed this.Now we are back to square one.
@ Gul,
I dont want to make you sad with the information that the same proceedure was exercised and practised, where the Qauid-i-Azam was 'elected' by the Muslim League in 1937.
I will join you gladly, to condemn both of the actions.
Gul
Member
javedsheikh
i believe and act on principles only - personalities are secondary. i would also join you gladly if indeed both actions WERE the same...but tell me who did 'Mohammadali Jinnahbhai' inherit Muslim League leadership from?
This debate reminds me where the religious leaders were discussing,
KAWWA HALAL HAI YA HARAAM,
when Halaku Khan was invading Bhughdad.
The scholars of Pakistan are discussing the 'election' or 'selection' of Balawal, putting aside the main issue of the restoration of Democracy and to get rid of Mr. Musharraf and Military Rule?
Coming back to your concern.
Please, look at the history of the Muslim League since 1906, on Internet.
The Muslim League created an undemocratic precedent, which was perpetuated when Mohtarma Fatima Jinnah was pushed into politics in 1964, to cash the 'Jinnah Factor'.
Attempts were made to bring Qauid-i-Azam’s daughter to lead the Muslim League, what she declined.
We like it or dislike, there is long history of Political Dynasties in Democratic countries such as UK, USA, and India.
There is nothing wrong with the strategy to cash the popularity of a Charismatic leader.
In PML (Q), Q stands for the Qauid-i-Azam. Why?
FIRNI KI PLATE PER CHANDI KA WARQ LAGANA ,
is a requirement of our culture.
Gul
Member
yaar, you've opened too many threads here. let's just stick to your initial assertion about the Quaid. you haven't presented any facts with regard to why you compared the circumstances of his accession to Muslim League's leadership to that of Bilawal's to the PPP leadership.
Be that as it may (and in my opinion, there is not even any semblance of resemblance between the two events), I really do not care. I call a spade a spade. What's undemocratic is undemocratic, no matter who is involved.
Sorry man, the Quaid card did not work with me. And any attempts to bring the Quaid's daughter to replce him as leader of Muslim League are neither here nor there. Any foolish acts of the past do not justify today's stupidity.
p.s. To my mind, no other political dynasties of any other country can stand to justify or excuse, either morally or intellectually, the subject of what we are discussing today.
However, UK and USA are a different discussion (but India, Korea, Lebanon and many other Asian and Middle Eastern countries are similar to us in this regard.....but still, they cannot form a basis for justification for the fundamentally undemocratic practices in Pakistan).
ZAB
Member
Selection of Bilawal is joke and Pakistan looks foolish. I think the selection of family members is against the basic norms of any democratic process or institution. It would have been better for Pakistan if party would have held internal elections and then would have elected a seasoned PPP member. Bilawal would have joined the party after graduation.
The death of BB is sad but the way party has reacted and blame game has started, it is destructive for Pakistan. Many countries have lost many great leaders in assassinations like Gandhi, Indira, Rajiv, Mujib, and Kennedy but the way things have been handled after the death of BB is inhuman and should never be accepted in this century. The looting, burning, and killing of poor people and government properties are a black mark on so-called Muslim Pakistan. The silence of all political leaders and inefficiency of Government of Pakistan is equally a moral and criminal act. The poor Pakistani has suffered. Poor shopkeepers, daily wage earners, and labor class have lost wages. No government official and politician has suffered any financial loss. These things did not happen in India, USA, and Bangladesh. I think PPP leaders should have come out aggressively to stop this violence.
Z.A. Bhutto's hanging was equally great tragedy but this level of violence did not happen. The PPP leadership at that time was more mature. I request all the parties involved; when they go for UN investigation regarding BB killing, then we also go for the same level of UN, Human Rights Groups, and Pakistan Government's investigation to bring these criminals to justice who have destroyed Pakistan's economy, killed/burned to death innocent poor people, looted banks, burned shops, cars, Government and private property. Those politicians who are not speaking against this criminal act must be defeated in elections. Shame on all politicians and people of power who looked silently of destruction at such a great level. Allah will do justice for those poor people who died, injured, looted, or destroyed. Insha-Allah. Nations with dual justice are destroyed.
secular_pakistan
Blocked
MR. JS,
Neither Jinnah, nor Fatima Jinnah, were 19 year old kids who don't know much about the world.
I know you are a PPP supporter, but, I wish you would do justice and criticise youre own when they are wrong.
The decision the party was not democratic, it was, first of all just decided by a few to members, secondly, the nomination was not based on credentials.
And, now, that Mr. 10% looter, murderer, criminal seems in charge of the party. I don't understand how could want to get rid of Musharraf, and, enter this kind of man in the power structure. Whats the point then? This man is a convicted felon in Switzerland, and, he has 70 cases against him in half a dozen countries.
This was the best possible decision under the present circumstances, where Establishment is all out to eliminate Bhutto Factor out of Pakistan's Politics.
Mr. Balawal is 19 years old, he is immature, his father is corrupt, he was known as Mr. 10%, and PPP is not a democratic party, it is a family cult, bla bla bla bla bla ............
What, if majority of the people in Pakistan, still believe that PPP is the only rope to materialize the hope for the restoration of Democracy?
The credibility of all charges and propaganda against PPP, BB and Zardari was trashed by the people of Pakistan on 18th October 2007.
This debate and discussion is mere waste of time.
Keep on with your sincere efforts. Good luck.
Rafi
Member
@ZAB
Indira Gandhi's assasination lead to riots that killed 2,000 plus sikhs and destruction of millions of dollars of property.
Martin Luther King's assasination in civilised country like USA lead to riots and in Los Angeles, Washington and other major US cities.
It does not justify what hapenned in Pakistan but I want to make the record straight.
Secondly, (though I am not a PPP supporter unless they push for restoration of Judiciary and Free Media) but I see their strategy in bringing Bilawal. 'Bilawal' is a symbolic chairman, major decisions in the party will be made by co-chariman i.e. Asif Zardari with the consultation of CEC. 'Bilawal' won't be in the active politics for next few years. So this debate of why 'Bilawal' or whether he can deliver is out of question.
Gul
Member
Yes, Bilawal's accession is a joke. It may be a reality/necessity for this cult which calls itself a political party, but this reality only demonstrates the political immaturity rife at all levels of public life. Genuine democratic process is a distant dream for our country.
Adonis
Member
@javedsheikh
It is better to check one's information if one is not sure about it. Sadly, you forgot to do that and as a result the information you posted regarding Quaid-i-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah is factually incorrect.
Quaid-i-Azam was elected as the president of Muslim League in 1934, not in 1937. This was not a nomination but an election in which Maulana Hasrat Mohani stood against him.
At that time Quaid-i-Azam was already one of the most accomplished Muslim leaders of his era. Comparing him with a 19 year old boy who inherited a family property called PPP is the height of absurdity.
adonis
i 100 % agree with u .
Javed Shiekh sahib,
dear sir
there is no comparision bw BB and Quiad e Azam.
My Quaid e Azam was not corrupt .
My Quaid e Azam was not a deal maker.
my Quaid e Azam was stood to his words always.
my Quaid e Azam has done what he has promised with the nation.
BB gets Zero in all categories i have mentioned above.
our biggest problem is that if a leader dies ,we sent him or her to laundry and he or she becomes Paak Saaf at once.ppl forgets all they have done bad with them.
if murder can make BB innocent ...then why not Changaeez khan,Halaku khan,Nadir Shah be pardoned ????as they are also no more in this world...God knows they might have been called Shaheed ,if there was a baist media there .
no2.u r a die hard supporter of BB ,so i can expect u to follow 19 year old Bilawal ,,,who doesnt know about pakistan,politics and doesnt know the real problems of the ppl here .
i can even expect u to follow the persion cat of Ms Bhutto ,if she has written her pet cats name in her will as a successor.
Quaid e Azam doesnt need to embrass an unnatural daeth just to live after death .
he was not Shaheed ...but he is still alive in our haert .
he is more respecatble then any So called Shaheed of this age.
Section # 1 of the Discussion:
1. The Qauid-i-Azam was mentioned with reference to the Evolution of the Muslim League and role of a Charismatic Leaders.
2. After the failure of Round Table Conferences, in 1930-33, the Qauid-i-Azam decided to quit politics and started his legal practice in London Privy Council.
3. He was convinced by Allam Iqbal (Ref. Letter of Iqbal to Jinnah), to come back and lead the Muslim League, after the Anti-Muslim 'attitude' of the Congress Ministries after the Elections of 1937.
Section # 2 of the Discussion:
1. The present debate is to discuss the consequences upon the nomination of Mr. Balawal Bhuto as Chairman of the PPP. It is better if we stick to that.
2. Why I am pro- PPP?
(i) I was a strong supporter of President Musharaf, taking him a realistic, liberal, secular and the most appropriate, available person to fight Terrorism in Pakistan.
(ii) I was prompted to turn against Musharaf, where Mr. Justice Chaudry Iftikhar was terminated on the charges of corruption. (The term corruption in Pakistan has lost its credibility)
(iii) According to my assessment, PPP was the only party and the (late) BB the most suitable leader to bring about any positive change.
(iv) The 'parrots' making a noisy propaganda by shouting DEAL' 'DEAL', 'DEAL', failed to visualize and understand the strategy, vision, tactics and diplomacy of BB, to create a gradual break through.
(v) The opponents of PPP indirectly or directly, provided support to Mr. Musharraf and his ‘WARDI’ to perpetuate his tenure and helped to create a situation, to eliminate BB and she was killed.
(Parrots should keep on crying and shouting: deal deal deal deal, corruption, corruption, corruption, America, America, America.)
(vi) I doubt, if Parties like TI, PML (N), JI, NAP, and JUI has any guts and muscles to defeat the policy of establishment to orchestrate and manufacture the domination and victory of PML (Q).
(v) A section of the 80% Pakistani, who wanted to get rid of Military Rule and Musharraf, has failed to recognize the exact tool and rope to climb up to the hope.
Now there is possibility that Pro-Musharaf or Military Rule will be perpetuated. ( One of my friends is wishing for PML(Q)+Military Rule in Pakistan for another 15 years, as a ‘punishment’ to such a ‘stupid ‘ crowd of ‘sheep’. He also suggested Mr. Wasi Zafar or Ch. Moonas Elahi to be the next PM)
@ Madam beena,
Yes there have been a few leaders in history, Like the Qauid-i-Azam, Z.A. Bhutto, Mujibal-Rahman, and Gandhi, upon whom people had blind faith. You talk about cat, in 1970, people voted for a 'TREE', as symbol of SWORD was hanging there
I and you should not be jealous, callous, cruel and picky, if we could not achieve that status.
@ shikra
I fully agree with you.
The RAAGA of Corruption, DEAL, sounds boring now. On the charges of Corruption, how and where you will keep 90% population.
Who will issue the Notification to declare Pakistan a Jail?
I also endorse the wishes of your friend that Military and PML (Q) should stay in power for two to three generations.
Unfortunately, Pakistani 'Crowd' doesn't deserve, what demand.
aishasana
Member
i think bilwal will follow his moms footsteps he is too young and niave but by the time he will finish his studies he will be more than ready to jump in the pond .he is the right choice coz many people in ppp have serious reservation with asif zardari .by nominating bilawal his father made infact a shrewd move .
about that deal now .
BB was desperate to come in power by hook or crook .her pragmatistic approach landed her in trouble coz everyone was against her having back door links with dictator mush .but here i think that she before coming to pakistan did not know where she is gonna land .despite of that deal she was skeptical of mush intentions and so was mush .
mush never wanted BB to come back to pakistan but he was forced to do so by mighty USA and BB ofcourse manipulated her return with their help .here i think this is really interesting that mush was made to chew his words back about BB and im sure he was not happy about it .in my point of view he might be also involved in her assasination coz he is capable of anything .
another factor is Q league well they were up against her from the very first day so there is a chance that there was bigger conspiracy which seems to meet the eyes .
Insider
Member
its a sad day when a 19 year old is judged to be "competent" because he changes his middle name to bhutto.
its not democracy, its a monarchy.
and JavedSheik....shame on you.
Rebel_B
Member
If a 19 year old is old enough to vote, he is old enough to hold office. Anyhow, it is not as if HE is going to run the party. Zardari is going to do that. I do not agree with his appointment but then I am not a PPP member OR supporter. While Insider/ macaca feels no qualms in supporting the dictatorship of Musharraf and opposing democracy at every step, he feels no shame in accusing others of being undemocratic. He is like that monkey hopping from tree to tree and thumbing his dripping nose at everybody.
Insider
Member
rebel you described your mother very well. i also thought that she should use a tissue instead of her thumb.
rebel you remind me of the "opposition" in pakistan. they dont support or stand for anything. but as soon as they get a chance they criticize the good work of another.
Rebel_B
Member
Actually, it was a US senator describing immigrants like you, who try to ape the goras, as macacas. Do you want me to send that link for your perusal, macaca, or did you already know your third rater status in the US?
Insider
Member
Dude, you live in Canada......its a known fact that all canadian immigrants tried to come to the US first and canada was their second option.
you started off as a second class citizen in a country that is second rate.
whats that make you?
Rebel_B
Member
I already told you I am not an immigrant. If I was, at least the Canadians don't accuse desis like you of being macacas. Also, I personally know a lot of American citizens like you and some gora Americans that have immigrated to Canada, or applied for asylum here to escape from your war of terror.
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