irfanx
Member
Should we allow another country to investigate our own primary matters. I agree that government has provided us with conspiracies rather then any solid reasons for Bhutto's death but still we as a nation should have our own sovereignty?
It reflects the mind set we have as still being colonial slaves mentally of the British Empire?
What can be done to change that?
What do you guys think?
Insider
Member
we should call the US and scotland yard and ask them to handle our nuclear weapons because we dont trust the government.
/sarcasm
irfanx
Member
I am afraid i have to agree with you Insider on this. If we cant run a state how can we take care of a nuclear weapon that can kill millions.
hassan
Member
First everyone was asking for a foreign investigation. Now the Government has announced to take foreign help, Mr. 10% is not willing to accept the offer.
I have full sympathy with Ms. Benazir, but look at the facts. She became prime minister twice. What she has done for us?
When she became P.M. first time, Pakistan was declared the most corrupt country in the world. In second term same story was repeated. These are the facts, Transparency International and other foreign websites have these information available for free.
If PPP can’t have democracy in their own party, how they can bring democracy in Pakistan. A 19 year old guy is declared the party’s leader. What a shame!
My Pakistani friends you should not be sad on Benazir’s death. You will see our children will pay price of her life. Bhutto died and we paid price of his death by giving Benazir five years as a P.M. Our children will pay on the death of Benazir by making P.M. to Mr. Balwal. This story will never end.
Insider
Member
hassan you are right.
zardari was stealing money under the veil of BB and now he will do it again under his sons name.
he is an unqualified thief.
Why Korean Engineers were invited to construct the Motor Way?
Was the sovereignty of Pakistan damaged?
Were Engineers of Pakistan incompetent?
Why thousands of students go out of Pakistan for ‘higher education’?
For the last 60 years Pakistan is surviving on American Glucose and people talk about sovereignty.
The 'parrots' are repeating: corruption, corruption, corruption corruption, deal deal deal deal deal. 10% 10% 10% 10%.
adeel ayub
Member
yeah its the biggest dilemma.
we all love to go abroad 4 studies and strive our best to settle there just to have a better future for ourselves & our off-spring.
we are being fed by over 10 billion $ grant form USA.
But then we complain Y WEST is interfering in our domestic problems?
Do we have the courage to say to the west "We don't need ur money so plz keep ur a-- out of here"?????
Insider
Member
mush has asked for this investigation because of the one sided media playing up conspiracy theories.
mush just wants this cleared up, he is an honest man.
irfanx
Member
@Javedshiekh
How many time do i have to repeat it. Your generation didn't care for Pakistan`s sovereignty but we CARE. Now your questions.
1. Your genration didn't had engineer but now we have all sort of engineers. Build another motor way and we can do it on our own with our local engineers.
2.Students go abroad to study and that has nothing to do with the current topic i find your example irrelevant. Besides at your time universities of Pakistan were not recognized by their own government so they were not accepted equivalent but now they are.
3. If you study a bit of economics you would know its not only US aid running this country.
One more thing in todays world we dont use phrases like parrots, shikra or wise man once said. In this century we prefer logical talk equipped with strong arguments and conclusions. Its never too late to change.
@Insider
We have a lot of honest people in Pakistan that does not qualify for dictating a country. Musharraf had weaken a few pillars like media and judiciary and thats not very honest and honorable.
Insider
Member
daaaaamn irfan owned javedsheik!
hassan
Member
Everyone should read following article published on The New York Times
"Bhutto Clan Leaves Trail Of Corruption"
http://www.samsloan.com/benazir.htm
Ifran is right, we should look at facts and figures.
@ irfanx
I am sorry, you made the same mistake.While Others are shouting corruption, corruption corruption, deal deal deal, and my dear friend; you are repeating the same RAAGA of generation, generation, generation.
The match between generations will take us back to the Stone Age.
The thread under discussion doesn't require a philosophical and intellectual terminology to understand.
Please don't tell me what everyone knows about the credibility and efficiency of the Institutions and Infra-structure in Pakistan. How the investigation is conducted and molded, due to lack of training and technology.
One should not be upset, if the administration, (I will not use the words, of your generation) acknowledged the need for help from UK, having more scientific knowledge and equipped with better tools.
Do you think is it a debatable issue, when there are precedents of accepting Foreign Aid and Technical help?
Is there something to generate inferiority complex and behave defensive?
irfanx
Member
I believe there is a reason to have a defensive behavior towards that. The establishment in Pakistan has always made people of Pakistan think they are not good enough to govern a state. You will find so many people in Pakistan still thinking that we are an inadequate and only army can rule us properly. This mental state is dangerous. We as a nation are psychologicaly still slave of the west and this whole mind set is being imposed onto us so we will think like slaves. That is the reason you find so many people becoming pro islamic in a defensive way. We need to have an identity and now in our most critical political time we will take HELP from British. They left us 60 years back and yet we reach out to them. Some one has to raise a voice i am just that voice nothing more. I know how evidence is tempered but i assure you that Scotland yard is not gonna find the criminals. Mark my words and in the process we loose our own identity once again.
Yes. Almost 25 years back in Pakistan,I had the same feelings.
Emotions dominated my reason. Reality was eclipsed by allusion.
I expressed my anger to an American Scholar at the American Center Lahore in 1984, who was opposing our desire to achieve nuclear capability.
The Role of the Government under Zia-ul-Haq and combination of some other social, moral and cultural evils in Pakistan, prompted me to change my optimism to see Pakistan as an independent, 'autonomous' and progressive State.
All my hopes to see Pakistan as a decent worth living state like Thailand, Malaysia or Singapore, were collapsed.
Our generation or the generation before 1947, if made any mistake; you should come up to undo that. My generation was without the information technology and tools, available to your generation.
You can produce better outcome.
Nothing succeeds like successes.
Good Luck.
Dear Irfanx,
i 100 % agree with you.
we shouldnt call any outsider to inspect our matters.
Dearest Shiekh Sahib,
with due respect,you know about one kind of parrots who repeats corruption,corruption,corruption...or deal,deal,deal...
i know about one more commmon kind of parrots..which keep repeating Shaheed,Shaheed,Shaheed...or sindh ka wazir azam ..punjab ka wazir azam...
which is more dangerous...
those parrots are using sindh card ..u know!
irfanx
Member
I never said i have anything against the scholars of US or Britain. Without any doubt i believe they are a way ahead of us. I also dont support Pakistan having a nuke very strongly because i am afraid we are not ready to have such a responsibility. Even when i was in Pakistan i was greatly inspired by the developments in west. These people work really hard and their society is very research oriented. I believe i was a harsh about our previous generations. We have all tried and are all trying to make something out of our country. I have no doubt that people before me didnt had resources and were a lot less educated and didnt had any information tools but inspite of that they tried hard. I only want you and the other people in this forum to be optimistic so we can always think forward. Thanks for you blessings.
God bless Pakistan
aishasana
Member
without getting emotional i do support that we should allow UN PROBING INTO HER DEATH ,instead of scotland to investigate the death of BB .now here im sure USA doesnot want ANY PROBE UNDER UN coz UN can hold unbiased investigation .
i dont think now that its the matter of sovereignty here .tell me one single inquiry held by OUR INTELLIGENCE OR POLICE who delievered any results .guys look at our history we will find a long trail of unsolved murders starting from liaqat ali khan ,assasination of zia and many other .where are the results of our enquiry .what happened to the investigation ? what happened in "ojri camp" ,so instead of harping the mantra sovereignty here we really need to seek help .where is hamood comission report ?
our police our investigator have delievered nothing .zia went down in a plane crash killing the top lot of our army and USA embassador what we know about it ? how it happened ?
we may be a great nation of doctors ,engineers etc etc but we as a nation believe in hush hush and dont know how many more people will be murdered but we will never know who did it .
Insider
Member
javed sheik, arent you the guy that said there is no corruption in pakistan?
you are not qualified to post in this thread, just read it next time.
@ Insider,
Do me a fovor.
Cut and paste, what I said.
Insider
Member
why dont you do me a fovor and stop flip flopping.
adeel ayub
Member
wat the hell!
i really thing we should be clear in our mind, as long as we ask 4 the west-aid, we have to obey their commands.
Insider
Member
what? adeel you are crazy.
we didnt ask for sept 11, we didnt ask for a war on terror. it came down to either cooperating with the US, or being the next target.
Mush made the right choice. It is in the interest of Pakistan to eliminate extremists. The same kind that think suicide bombing is ok.
With that said, Mush is under no obligation to allow foreign countries to conduct investigations in his country. Case Closed.
irfanx
Member
@aishasana
When did i say dont let UN to come in to investigate. I strongly support that. But British Scotland Yard is a different story thats not an international entity its like asking help from your previous rulers. The mantra of sovrenity has to be sang by some one at this particular issue i think its important. Besdies you really think that a british team is gonna find anything. Look into the case od Diana its been years and they are still looking. Should i remind you of J F Kenedy assasination. My point is answers are not as important as ur national pride when you are not even sure yu will find an answer. Again i favour UN and i supprot the comments that MUSH invetigator did a worse job.
aishasana
Member
irafnx
no i did not mean that u r against UN PROBING i just said UN should probe into this and u r right there about diana and jf .
my point was only this that seeking help in present senerio is important as far as our sovereignty is concerned i too strongly belief that we ought to have one but seriously we dont have it .
where was our sovereignty when in bajur many students were bombarded by USA forces and mush happily took blame on himself ?
everyone knows usa forces are trespassing in our country without even informing us ?
where was our sovereignty when bush came on tv nonstop and try to dictate us their terms ,recently he urged (read threat here ) after BB death that election should not be hindered .?
where is our sovereignty when we are being used to wage their proxy war within our country against our own people ?
irafnx i can say a lot more but the ground reality is this seriously i feel so sad and i feel no qualms in admiting that we dont have that thing which u called "sovereignty"
@ Insider,
What authority you have to declare someone as unquailified for this Forum? Are you son of a dictator?
Out of 30-40 contributors at this forum there are only few scholars who talk sense and provide information. I sincerely feel, JS is one of them.
Learn swimming before jumping into pond, my dear friend.
What will be left on this forum without, beena, aisha, anderbandar,secular,irfanx, hasheesh and javedsheikh?
Do your home work before entering the examination hall. Please.
Insider
Member
Shikra you are the problem. Naming "scholars" out of people you know nothing about. And the fact that you mentioned "aisha" as a valuable member is hilarious. She is by far the most useless poster on the boards. She has not come up with a single idea or opinion on her own. Forget about being wrong or right, at least be independent minded.
As for JS, the fact that he looks up to Salman Rushdie says enough. Good day.
You are not the only judge to make a verdict.
still you have to mind your language, even if you don't like aisha or she has failed to convince you.
The same folmula could be appleid upon you.
Paste all of your contributions at this forum on one page and let us acknowledge your wisdom, knowledge and experties.
AAp Ne Kaun Sa Teer Chala Dya?
It is easy to criticise than to face criticism my dear Bhole Badshah.
Insider
Member
lol at this "hero no 1" coming to save aisha. mind your own business you loser.
why dont you go back to being a lurker, you have nothing to contribute here.
The persons, I mentioned, differ to each other, but in a civilised way.
They never get personal, agitated and uncivilised.
This is a contribution to acknowldge, if someone is keeping this forum attractive.
Gul
Member
I can't believe every thread is degenerating into taking pot shots at each other.
This is a very simple matter. Scotland Yard's help in investigation, especially when invited to do so, has nothing whatsoever to do with sovereignty. It may lend some credibility to the process. It is a fact that SY is one of the finest investigative agencies in the world...and their contribution should help answer some of the trillion questions raised by this assassination.
@ Gul,
You have summed up the proposition in a beautiful way. I must appreciate your approach.
We all know , accept and acknowledge, that in spite of great 'development', certain Institutions in Pakistan, still lack the experties, tools and technology to establish the credibility of a proceedure.
This thread should be terminated after your posting, now.
aishasana
Member
yes i agree javed
gul has summed it beautifullt .
and shakira
im baffled dont know how to deal with that guy so i m keeping quiet coz i had enough .he really got on my nerves .
adeel ayub
Member
@Insider,
ok, {4 an instance} i'm convinced this "war-on -terror" is in pak interest.
but dude when r v going to get rid of it, when we have actually lost rather than gained for last 7 yrs?(with whole world assisting us).
andarkabandar
Members
yep we need ouside help.period.
outside help at what terms?
do they share the findings with Govt only?as they are invited by the Govt...
or they share it with PPP leaders like Asif Zardari?
both of the cases there is a doubt ,poor public never got to know,what actaully they found out?
they have to put BB murder in the same corner of mind where they have already stored many unresolved national murders like Liaqat Ali khan and Hakeem Saeed ....
@shikra sahib,
thanks for considering me as a contributor ...
although i dont think so ...coz my knowldge is quite limited.
thanks again.
No one is again discussing the topic here.
In my personal opinion, there is no harm in calling an investigation team from outside. You all see our police everyday, are the capable enough. They had not solves even a single such case till now so how someone could expect from them in future.
I am in the favour of this idea, that when you dont have some knowledge, seek from others and there is no harm in this.
But i have one question which BUSHARRAF initiated last night. Why Benazir did not called such an investigation when MURTAZA BHUTTO was killed????? where was Mr. 10% at that time?
lets do it
good question!
I guess a clear majority at PKPOLITCS family has endorsed the involvement of SY for helping to solve a critical problem, without damaging the sovereignty of Pakistan.
If BB made mistakes, she suffered. It doesn't mean we should keep on repeating the same wrong precedents in 2008.
I am sorry for spreading misinformation. Actually this was not my statement, it was statement given by Musharraf and later also by Perveiz Elahi.
http://express.com.pk/epaper/PoPupwindow.aspx?newsID=1300186286&Issue=NP_LHE&Date=20080104
Scotland Yard were called for help even after Murtaza Bhutto but they were send back by Farooq Laghari. I did not knew this before for which i am sorry. But i have listened this last night at GEO that Musharraf gave this statement. here is the link.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/regional/story/2008/01/080103_scotlandyard_in_pakistan.shtml
aishasana
Member
lets dot it bro
thankGod u cleared it i was about to correct u when i saw your first post .
Sorry sister
I should have checked the information before posting it. But one thing i am sure that Musharraf stated this to some foriegn channel which Geo also broadcasted and today i have also read this in a news paper for which i have posted the link.
irfanx
Member
@Gul
The problem in it self is that now for us this is a very simple matter. Even at a very critical time when Pakistan is on the verge of becoming a disaster in terms of institutions and political stability. We all know ISI was the main reason in defeating super power russia and its intelligence and Britain is on a fall from the last few centuries. Now my point is we all strongly believe ISI cannot investigate because they have their own intrest. My question to everyone of you is that wont Britain and US have their own interest in this investigation. We have seen in past that some times that interest contradicts Pakistan interest. So why put so much faith in another country and their investigation teams on such a critical matter. Besides on the top is shadows the main problem we have in Pakistan that is ruled without peoples`s will and vote. SO this system and go on and when ever we have crisis we would ask a western power to help us out because our own people do not trust us. Its like curing the symptoms not the cause.
Gul does it still sound so simple?
Insider
Member
while SY is investigating Bhuttos death, do you think they could look into her brother Murtuza's killing as well?
@insider
wat you want all of our beloved leaders to be convicted by SY? :):):)
@ Irfanx,
You have a valid point.
The question still remain unanswered.
Whom , we should trust for credibility?
US, Britian or any other country could twist the outcome to a problem rather than a solution.
Pakistan agencies are capable to produce a cow in the court, confessing, 'she did it'.
aishasana
Member
my vote is for UN only .
im 1951 same scotland yard was asked to probe in liaqat ali murder but they were asked to leave country by pakistani govt and the reasons were never revealed uptill now .
i do thing our govt asking them to help is merely an eye wash .
@ aishasana,
I guess the SY conducted and compiled a comprehensive report about Liaqat Ali Khan's murder, but the record was destroyed in a plane crash near Rahwali (Gujranwala).
The DSP, carrying the file was also killed.
aishasana
Member
ya i heard about that too .but is it true ?
andarkabandar
Members
we are a stupid country we do stupid things all the time we need help real bad.
if we were a smart nation and a people and a coutry we would not be where we are today.
other countries would seek our help to solve their crimes.
for those of you who do not want help from outside
i tell you pls dont forget to take your pills.
irfanx
Member
Pills of wisdom or pills to go back to sleep. If some ones argues the methods we have currently in our country he is advised to take a pill. So please tell me how is this gonna help us get any smarter. Besides how does a nation gets smart, i seriously believe that you dont doubt the capability of a human mind or u dont think people of Pakistan are dumb. I wish you would have seen people in any other country and you will realise people are the same. Its just little things and a little awareness taht makes a big DIFFERENCE.
SO Dr.Bandar i would advice you to stop practicing on people without certain knowledge and stop giving them thsoe adictive pills.
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