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Discuss » Faith and Religion

1. 

   LalBichoo.
   Blocked

   Please comment !

   Posted 2 years ago on 06 Jan 2010 10:10 #
2. 

   NNL
   member

   No they arent the same.

   They have a similar approach in following Sharia but they have different routes they take.

   For example Salafis have a weird way of doing things. They would try to approach the Sunnah with a rough approach.

   Wahabis is a misnomer used for the people of Ummah who arent sufi or brelvis. 99% of them who claim to be Wahabis dont even have freaking clue why they are Wahabis or what does Wahabi mean or entail. And same goes for the People who call others Wahabis they are clueless.

   Ahul-Hadeeth. they are different from Salafis cos their approach is not that of a Salafi. and since Wahabi is nothing but a misused and misguided label thus they are different from the Deobandis and Bralvis.

   Ahul Hadeeth include the Hanafis, Shafais, Hanablis, Malikis cos they all base their Sharia on hadeeths. So thus the Sahabas were Ahul Hadeeth. Ahul HAdeeth is another name for the people who are the true Ahl-e-Sunnah Wal Jamat.

   ( the above definition is definition used by the Ulema of Islam) Thus anyone who follows the hadeeths thus follows the Sunnah of Rasool Allah Sallaho Alahi Wasallam and is from Ahl-ul-Sunnah in the eyes of Rasool Allah.

   One thing needs to be remembered. ANYONE WHO SAYS OR LABELS HIMSELF/HERSELF OTHER THAN A MUSLIM IS GUILTY OF FORMING A SECT AND IS THUS OUTSIDE THE FOLD OF ISLAM AND THE FOLD OF AHUL-SUNNAH WAL JAMAT.

   Now everyone likes to call themselves Ahul-Sunnah wal Jammat but they truly arent if they arent doing exactly as the hadiths have prescribed.

   Posted 2 years ago on 07 Jan 2010 4:52 #
3. 

   UmeR
   Member

   Ahle-hadith and wahabis are one and the same thing, they follow Abdul WAHAB najdi, so people call them wahabi, which they deem derogatory and prefer to be called ahle-hadith.

   Although salafi's follow ibn tamiyya and abdul wahab, which ahle-hadith/wahabi follow, but there are some differences between them, but mostly these three terms Salafi/wahabi/ahle-hadith are used inter-changeably.

   Posted 2 years ago on 07 Jan 2010 15:13 #
4. 

   UmeR
   Member

   @ NNL

   Ahul Hadeeth include the Hanafis, Shafais, Hanablis, Malikis cos they all base their Sharia on hadeeths. So thus the Sahabas were Ahul Hadeeth.

   This is not correct, Ahle-hadith are partially hanbali, as they pick and choose in fiqah, and deem 'Taqleed' to be bidah and even shirk! So they along with salafi's are also called 'Ghair-muqalid'.

   Ahul HAdeeth is another name for the people who are the true Ahl-e-Sunnah Wal Jamat.

   Well! this is new to me.

   Abu Amir al-Hawdhani said, "Mu'awiyah ibn Abi Sufyan (may Allah be pleased with him) stood among us and said, 'Beware! The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) stood among us and said': 'Beware! The People of the Book before (you) were split up into 72 sects, and this community will be split up into 73, seventy-two of them will go to Hell and one of them will go to Paradise, and it is the majority group (Jama'ah).' (Sunan Abu Dawood 3/4580)

   And ahle-hadith are definitely not a majority group.

   Posted 2 years ago on 07 Jan 2010 15:35 #
5. 

   Salam
   member

   Based on my interaction with them my understanding is that they are the same and they have correct understanding with some weaknesses.

   Posted 2 years ago on 07 Jan 2010 15:56 #
6. 

   NNL
   member

   NNL wrote

   Wahabis is a misnomer used for the people of Ummah who arent sufi or brelvis. 99% of them who claim to be Wahabis dont even have freaking clue why they are Wahabis or what does Wahabi mean or entail. <bold>And same goes for the People who call others Wahabis they are clueless.</bold>

   Umer since you havent studied the Wahabi movement and its founder i can understand your frustration with it. Needless to say that the term Wahabi was coined by the Sufis and Bralvis of Asia for they were identifying each other as being Deobandi, Bralvi, Naqshbandi, Qadri and Ajmeri and etc etc. The founder was Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahab was a Hanbali in Fiqh. And his teacher was Mohammad Hayya Al-Sindhi a person from Sind who was the teacher of Hadith in Medina. So i think if you really want to term the students of Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahab then you should term them as Al-Sindi innit.

   As for the Definition of Ahl-ul-Hadeeth, my brother in 'Islam' Umer doesnt know who are the Ahl-ul-Hadith and didnt read my my next line after the part he has quoted me. I gave the definition of Ahl-ul-Hadith which is used by the scholars of yester yrs and current ones. I gave the scholarly definition. Which i will repeat again.

   AHl-ul-Hadith are the people of Hadith. i.e the ones who followed the Sunnah in accordance to what the people who narrated the Sunnah via Hadith. Their every action can be proved and attested by a authentic hadith and thus having immense proof that their every action was done by Rasool Allah Sallaho Alahi Wasallam which is the Sunnah.

   "Early proponents ascribe the authority of Ahl al-Hadith to specific hadith of Mohammed. Ibn Hajar mentioned the people of hadith in his commentary of the hadith, "And this nation will continue, established upon Allah’s command, unharmed by those who oppose them until the arrival of Allah’s order." He stated that Muhammad ibn Ismael al-Bukhari was adamant that those referred to in this hadith were the people with knowledge of the narrations, Ahl al-Athar, i.e. the people of hadith. And then quoted Ahmad ibn Hanbal as saying, "If they are not Ahl al-Hadith, then I do not know who they are." Al-Qadi ‘Iyyad explained that Ahmad was referring to Ahl al-Sunnah and those who share the beliefs of the people of hadith.[3] Taken from Wikipedia as it was the only online that i found find on web People of Hadith

   I can quote you Umer the Statements of the all Four Great Imams of Fiqh on status of People of Hadith.

   You have then quoted the Hadith of Mua'waiyah ibn Abi Sufyan. But you forgot to mention the views of the various Ulema and Muhadithsoun which is as follows

   It was narrated from Mu’aawiyah ibn Abi Sufyaan (may Allaah be pleased with him) that he said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) stood among us and said: “Those who came before you of the people of the Book split into seventy-two sects, and this ummah will split into seventy-three: seventy-two in Hell and one in Paradise, and that is the jamaa’ah (main body of Muslims).”

   Narrated by Abu Dawood (4597) and others; classed as saheeh by al-Haakim (1/128), who said: it is an important hadeeth that represents a basic principle. It was classed as hasan by Ibn Hajar in Takhreej al-Kashshaaf (63). It was classed as saheeh by Ibn Taymiyah in Majmoo’ al-Fataawa (3/345), al-Shaatibi in al-I’tisaam (1/430), and al-‘Iraaqi in Takhreej al-Ihya’ (9/133). It is mentioned frequently and often quoted as evidence by the scholars in the books of Sunnah, and it was narrated from a number of the Sahaabah via many isnaads, most of the soundest of which specify the number of sects as being seventy-three.

   The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) described the saved group as the jamaa’ah, i.e., the consensus of the Muslim scholars. In other reports he also described them as “the vast multitude”, as in the hadeeth of Abu Umaamah and others which is recorded by Ibn Abi ‘Aasim in al-Sunnah (1/34) and al-Tabaraani in al-Mu’jam al-Kabeer (8/321), with an isnaad that is hasan li ghayrihi (hasan because of corroborating evidence).

   The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) also described them in the following terms: “My ummah will split into seventy-three sects, all of whom will be in Hell except one group.” They said: Who are they, O Messenger of Allaah? He said: “(Those who follow) that which I and my companions follow.” This is mentioned in the hadeeth of ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Amr which was recorded and classed as hasan by al-Tirmidhi (2641). It was also classed as hasan by al-‘Iraaqi in Ahkaam al-Qur’aan (3/432), al-‘Iraaqi in Takhreej al-Ihya’ (3/284) and al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi.

   So now do you understand the meaning of the word Jamaah. If you still dont then i will spell it out for you. The Jamaah means the Majority and the definition of Jamaah or Majority in the Eyes of Rasool Allah Sallahu Alahi Wasallam is He and his Sahabas Radhi Allah Unhum. So it can be safely said that the Majority of the Sahabas Radhi Allah Unhum are the Jamaah. Not the majority in numbers. Jamaah can be defined as the Path on which there was the Majority of the Sahabas.

   Posted 2 years ago on 07 Jan 2010 21:49 #
7. 

   NNL
   member

   Plus you also have to understand the origination of the word Salaf.

   Salaf or Salaf-us-Salih are the one who are refered as the people of the First 3 Generations. Sahabas, Tabieen and Taba-tabieen.

   But they themselves never called them something other than as a Muslim or classed themselves into any group.

   I hope this will educate the people and i have tried to explain the best i could from my very limited knowledge.

   Posted 2 years ago on 07 Jan 2010 21:58 #
8. 

   Salam
   member

   Brother we are talking about people who live with us and UmeR's understanding is very much correct, I agree with that.

   I am saying this because my own personal interaction with salafi & ahl-e-hadith

   Original scholar/reformer was Muhammad Ibn Abdl Wahab and that is why people associate his followers with his name.

   Posted 2 years ago on 07 Jan 2010 23:35 #
9. 

   NNL
   member

   Are you refering to the Jamiat Ahl-e-Hadees in Pakistan or is RS asking the Generalized Difference.

   What i have given is the General description of what Ahl-e-Hadith is meant by.

   Using that definition you can easily view and judge who is who and what is what and who is on the right path and who isnt.

   I was trying to give you the correct view of what the terms Salafi and Ahl-e-Hadiths mean.

   About the Political Party who have named themselves as such and are following the definition of Ahl-Hadiths then they are the Ahl-ul-Sunnah Wal Jammah.

   Posted 2 years ago on 08 Jan 2010 0:44 #
10. 

    LalBichoo.
    Blocked

    @NNL, Salam & UmeR

    Thanks a lot for your feedback !

    Posted 2 years ago on 08 Jan 2010 13:11 #
11. 

    UmeR
    Member

    Umer since you havent studied the Wahabi movement and its founder i can understand your frustration with it. Needless to say that the term Wahabi was coined by the Sufis and Bralvis of Asia for they were identifying each other as being Deobandi, Bralvi, Naqshbandi, Qadri and Ajmeri and etc etc. The founder was Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahab was a Hanbali in Fiqh. And his teacher was Mohammad Hayya Al-Sindhi a person from Sind who was the teacher of Hadith in Medina. So i think if you really want to term the students of Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahab then you should term them as Al-Sindi innit.

    Oh! seems like you know a lot about me, or maybe you just have ilm-e-ghaib that you know I've not studied the history. Anyway first you claim I've not studied the 'WAHABI movement' and then you tell me the word WAHABI is a misnomer. Anyway, how did sufi brailvis or deobandis coined the term wahabi? The word wahabi has been in use long before the brailvi-deobandi split began, and if i'm not wrong the first opposition Abdul Wahab najdi faced was from home, and it was his brother sulaiman that wrote a book against his deviant teachings, and used the word 'wahhabiya ', and then this is the name by which the followers of Abdul wahab najdi were known, but at the time British were ruling India, Maulana Batalvi sent an application to the viceroy, that they be called Ahle-hadith rather than 'Wahabis', the application was granted and in return in his books, the Maulana declared jihad against Britishers 'HARAM'. And Well! It really doesn't matter if they call themselves tamimi, najdi, wahabi or ahle-hadith, the thing that matters are their beliefs.

    .As for the Definition of Ahl-ul-Hadeeth, my brother in 'Islam' Umer doesnt know who are the Ahl-ul-Hadith and didnt read my my next line after the part he has quoted me. I gave the definition of Ahl-ul-Hadith which is used by the scholars of yester yrs and current ones. I gave the scholarly definition. Which i will repeat again.

    AHl-ul-Hadith are the people of Hadith. i.e the ones who followed the Sunnah in accordance to what the people who narrated the Sunnah via Hadith. Their every action can be proved and attested by a authentic hadith and thus having immense proof that their every action was done by Rasool Allah Sallaho Alahi Wasallam which is the Sunnah..

    The 4 Imams were known as Ahle Fiqh whereas people such as Imam Bukhari and Imam Muslim were known as Ahle Hadith, this was because they had learned thousands and thousands of Ahadeeth by heart. So to be part of Ahle Hadeeth you must know 100,000 Ahadeeth by heart, today these common day jahil, they don't even know one hadith by heart in its entirety and they think they become Ahle Hadeeth or Salafi overnight. Anyway here are some more Ahadith:

    Ibn Abbas (Allah be pleased with him) reported the Prophet (Peace be upon him) as saying:

    "One who found in his Amir (the ruler of the true Islamic state; which is absent today) something which he disliked should hold his patience, for one who separated from the main body of the Muslims even to the extent of a handspan and then he died, would die the death of one belonging to the days of Jahiliyya." (Sahih Muslim, 3/4559; English ed'n & Sahih al-Bukhari, 9/257; English ed'n)

    Imam's Ahmad and Abu Dawood (Allah's mercy be upon them) said that Abu Dharr (Allah be pleased with him) reported the Prophet (Peace be upon him) as saying:

    "He who separates from the main body (of the Ummah) by even a hand's breadth from the Community he throws off Islam from his neck." (Mishkat-ul-Masabih, 1/185 & Sunan Abu Dawood, 3/4740)

    Ibn Umar (Allah be pleased with him) reported Allah's Messenger (Peace be upon him) as saying:

    "Follow the great mass (as-Sawad al-Azam) for he who kept himself away from it, in fact would be thrown in Hell Fire." (Ibn Majah; vide: Mishkat, 1/174, by A.H. Siddiqui).

    Imam al-Tirmidhi (4/2167) reported on the authority of Ibn Umar (Allah be pleased with him) from the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace), who said: "Verily my Ummah would not agree (or he said the Ummah of Muhammad) would not agree upon error and Allah's hand is over the group and whoever dissents from them departs to Hell." (see also Mishkat, 1/173)

    So now do you understand the meaning of the word Jamaah. If you still dont then i will spell it out for you. The Jamaah means the Majority and the definition of Jamaah or Majority in the Eyes of Rasool Allah Sallahu Alahi Wasallam is He and his Sahabas Radhi Allah Unhum. So it can be safely said that the Majority of the Sahabas Radhi Allah Unhum are the Jamaah. Not the majority in numbers. Jamaah can be defined as the Path on which there was the Majority of the Sahabas.

    Oh thank you for this information, but as you claimed before that ahle hadith have 'immense proof' for their actions, so please why don't you provide a little bit of evidence of this interpretation of the word Jamaah, Anyway, this interpretation certainly goes against many Ahadith.

    Posted 2 years ago on 08 Jan 2010 13:25 #
12. 

    NNL
    member

    Again you entire post is actually filled with Hatred towards one person and after that you have talked about all the Hadiths on Leaving the Jamaah but very conveniently not explained that what is the Sharh or the explanation of the word Jammah.

    Again my friend albeit a misguided one i have given the definitons which can be researched and rechecked from all the unbiased sources.

    RS is satisfied

    thus the topic is over.

    Posted 2 years ago on 08 Jan 2010 14:03 #
13. 

    Salam
    member

    Brother Umer & Brother NNL,

    There is no disagreement here, but sheytaan has started something and is enjoying and smiling at us.

    Let us not give shaytaan any chance and fail his attempt.

    Regards

    Posted 2 years ago on 08 Jan 2010 14:04 #
14. 

    UmeR
    Member

    @ NNL

    Again you entire post is actually filled with Hatred towards one person and after that you have talked about all the Hadiths on Leaving the Jamaah but very conveniently not explained that what is the Sharh or the explanation of the word Jammah.

    Again my friend albeit a misguided one i have given the definitons which can be researched and rechecked from all the unbiased sources.

    Ohkay! I am misguided and filled with hatred for disagreeing with you and whatever you say is eternal truth as it comes from a unbiased source, so it cannot be questioned. Great! You think you've achieved something, well maybe you can sleep well tonight. T/c

    Posted 2 years ago on 08 Jan 2010 14:52 #
15. 

    love1pak
    Member

    @NML
    dear brother, I was in great confusion when I was there in KSA, but many thanks to Almighty He guided me very soon.
    I and one of my fellow was wondering that 'how we may know that during offering prayers where should we keep our hands placed? i.e. on the chest, below the chest or below the anticardium(naaf). I found a Hadees in Abu Daud, in which

    Hazrat Ali narrates that Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) used to keep his hand below the anticardium (naaf) while offering prayers.

    I want to know what do you say about this Hadees! and why Salfi/wahabi/ahl e hadees keep their hand above the anticardium?? As there is no other hadees about the 'way' Muhammad (Peace be upon him) offered his prayers.

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Jan 2010 19:27 #
16. 

    NNL
    member

    To the person who loves to destroy others' name May Allah Destroy yours. (smile)

    This topic is not for a forum such as this and for this is not the place for it.

    And i doubt it that you my friend would be able to discuss the topic on your own rather than going to some website for some good copy/paste art. Neither of us are scholars thus i dont why you would discuss something that is beyond your grasp.

    Anyhoo though i dont wish to discuss this topic for i m not a scholar or a student of knowledge you have piqued my interest in this matter.

    Regarding the Hadith could you be very kind enuf to provide the Isnad of the Hadith that you quoted to be from Al-Ameer-al-Momineen Ali Radhi Allah Unhu? In which of Imam Abu Dawud Rahim Allah's books ?

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Jan 2010 22:09 #
17. 

    NNL
    member

    To Akhi Umer.

    After much Contemplation and thought on this post. I feel that i may have wronged you in my correspondence to you. Apparently i shouldnt have taken offence to the usage of the word Najdi after the Shaykh Muhammad's name. Allah Izza Wa Jal knows the intention of the word and thus i leave it for Him to decide whether or not you have wronged a man who was more on Sunnah than either of us combined.

    Please do forgive me for my inappropriate wordings and any ill-feelings that i may have caused you.

    I had tried my best to give the definitions which were the definitions according to the Ulema of Islam. I tried my best to make it non-trivial for all. Alas i failed.

    Please do accept my sincerest apologies.

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Jan 2010 22:17 #
18. 

    NNL
    member

    http://pkpolitics.com/discuss/topic/are-salafis-wahabies-and-ahl-e-hadith-are-names-of-a-same-sect#post-108742

    To Clarify the above post directed to the person who more or less sounds like a person who has a habit of distorting nicks and was banned earlier

    Posted 2 years ago on 11 Jan 2010 2:17 #
19. 

    Salam
    member

    you mean mulla nafs-e-zaki?

    Posted 2 years ago on 11 Jan 2010 2:28 #
20. 

    LalBichoo.
    Blocked

    Ya Ahki NNL

    Could you please elaborate your last post !

    Posted 2 years ago on 11 Jan 2010 4:45 #
21. 

    love1pak
    Member

    @NML
    Dear brother, found the reference of this Hadees in a book 'Zaad ul Mead' written by "Muhammad bin Abdul Wahab".
    I will check for the isnad and further reference of this Hadees by Hazrat Ali (radi alla ho anho) in Abu Daud.

    Posted 2 years ago on 11 Jan 2010 5:13 #
22. 

    netengr
    blocked

    Ameen Bil Jeher ,Size of the beared ,Rafa yatain ,puting hands on chest in Namaz and other minor Faiqa Masail ,Thats all which is always being discussed in Ahle hadees Masajids and in their books ,Some Ahle Hadees called Brelvi and DEobandi Sufi "Mushrik " . The most "B'd Akhlakh person is the most "Katter " Ah le Hadees guy .

    Posted 2 years ago on 11 Jan 2010 6:20 #
23. 

    love1pak
    Member

    @NNL

    Abu Daud: Book 3, Number 0755:

    Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib:

    AbuJuhayfah said: Ali said that it is a sunnah to place one hand on the other in prayer below the navel.

    Abu Daud: Book 3, Number 0757:

    Narrated AbuHurayrah:

    (The established way of folding hands is) to hold the hands by the hands in prayer below the navel.

    Posted 2 years ago on 11 Jan 2010 6:57 #
24. 

    UmeR
    Member

    @ NNL

    No problem bro, In my first post I strictly sticked to the topic, but in reply to your post I had to mention that ahle-hadith/wahabi deem 'taqleed' to be shirk, so they do not follow any of the four schools of Fiqah.

    And secondly, you rightly should not have become enraged because of me using the word najd, as ahle-hadith use it proudly, here is one example:

    t/c

    Posted 2 years ago on 11 Jan 2010 10:00 #