Admin and secular approach to "islamic" topics

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Admin and secular approach to "islamic" topics

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FJ_ Pak
member

Dear All

I am very unhappy with the aproach and actions taken by Admin to move any topic which even has remote link with islam to the F&R section from Current Afairs.

The very nature of secularism is that it separates religion from life's affairs but from islamic point of view there is no separation between religin, state or life's affairs.

I want to record my protest on this approach by admin. I have put my griviences on the thread supplied by admin but zameen jumnband na jumnband Admin na jumnband

What are your views

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Mar 2010 17:36 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

I have been screaming at admin to stop from doing this.

He just doesn't listen.

Seems like the Admin has seen some good in his life experiences from western democracy, from capitalism. If that is true, then it should be obvious that ALL the good he knows in his life, it came from the west. Naturally he'd be under charm of the west.

Looks like he hasn't studied Islam yet. It will take him some time to understand Islam.

I'm going to post videos for educating Muslims. I hope he won't put them in F&R :@. I want F&R deleted! altogether, right! now!.

P.S. Sometimes I think of establishing a parallel Discuss Forum. But, then I say naaaaaah. I want these people to learn Islam, to learn their own DEEN. I hope he's a Muslim. If he's not, then its useless to struggle with him, for the time being.

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Mar 2010 17:48 #
sasherwani
Members

This is a funny thread. Five of the ten most recent threads on the forum are related to religion, religous parties or religious figures and you are still protesting against 'religious freedom'.

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Mar 2010 18:24 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@sasherwani: You just don't listen, do you ? No, as long as you'r in the driving seat, why would you ?

Why did you bother to show up here anyway ?

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Mar 2010 18:27 #
S.E.Mirza
Moderator

Right to Freedom of Expression! Is why he is here, the same what you seek?
You are free to express religious topics in 'Faith and Religion'. Still the presence of some on Discuss forum is a proof that your claim is not correct and Administration is not as strict as you project.
Can't have it both ways, having religious threads on 'Discuss' and then complaining otherwise.
A wise decision by Admin to open a separate forum 'Faith and Religion'.

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Mar 2010 18:30 #
FJ_ Pak
member

Muhtaram sasherwani

This is very point I am making, There is no such thing as religious matter or non religious matter in islam.

So much so that there are no such thing as morals in islam as a separate or special subject. The things or code which is known as morals are just islamic injunctions like any other islamic injunctions but this debate is for another time.

F&R section should be abolished as separate section and should be merged with current affairs.

FJ

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Mar 2010 18:33 #
FJ_ Pak
member

muhtaram semirza

are you going to be reactionary in your approach on this issue just because some members have misbehaved.

I would have hoped and expected that you will make an objective judgement and not based uopn reaction. The judgement made on this issue so far is littered with bias and subjectivity and not objectivity

The following thread should be in current affairs

http://pkpolitics.com/discuss/topic/islam-important-issue-related-to-ijtehad-and-difference-of-opinion

FJ

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Mar 2010 18:40 #
S.E.Mirza
Moderator

Reactionary approach.......The judgement made on this issue so far is littered with bias and subjectivity and not objectivity.

I do not agree as it is us who have to face the music most of the time. Reactionary approach by members, intollerance, abusive lingo, unjust labeling, personal attacks, complains against moderation were reason enough to create a separate forum as F&R.
Now there is no moderation on F&R and no complains either.

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Mar 2010 19:00 #
FJ_ Pak
member

muhtaram semirza

would you please cater to tell why the above mentioned thread moved to F&R. what criterion was used. Mere presence of word islam does not warrant the thread to be sent to oblivian of F&R section.

FR

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Mar 2010 19:07 #
Mirza Ghalib
member

This does sound like an arbitrary decision on the part of some. I second the concerns voiced by Faarigh Jazbati and Hariskhan above.

This is Pakistan. Religion will crop up, whatever the topic under discussion. Imposing artificial categories such as politics and then faith and religion will not make this blog a more comfortable place. It might over time even turn it into one surrounded by barbed wire.

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Mar 2010 19:07 #
S.E.Mirza
Moderator

Creation of Faith and Religion is not my decision. There were some compelling reasons for the undertaking of this step.
Speaking for myself, I am a practicing Muslim Alhamdolillah.
One can pull a non religious topic into a religious one and the other way around.
When a seemingly non religious topic has taken a turn towards a religious one (done here very often) only then Admin/mods would move it to F&R.
I hope this explains!

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Mar 2010 19:21 #
FJ_ Pak
member

muhtaram semirza

"When a seemingly "non religious" topic has taken a turn towards a "religious" one (done here very often) only then Admin/mods would move it to F&R."

Coul you please elaborate when my below thread taken a turn towards a "religous" one and more importantly when it will be moved back to current affairs

http://pkpolitics.com/discuss/topic/islam-important-issue-related-to-ijtehad-and-difference-of-opinion

FJ

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Mar 2010 19:26 #
S.E.Mirza
Moderator

Are you sure I know how this ended up there? I think you yourself should go through the thread once more to find answers for yourself!

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Mar 2010 19:32 #
FJ_ Pak
member

muhtaram semirza

The only thing I am sure about this thread ending up in dusty corridors of F&R is that along with the Mullah some people who are powers to be of this website are also afraid of discussion on the issue of Tabanni and what implication it will have to quell the misconception about the practicality of islam and implementation of islamic rules.

The issue of Tabanni is not only very important but very relevant to clear the air on the issue of more than one interpretation of islam and also how to deal with the different opinions in a islamic system and how to settle the disputes.

Perhaps you can also shed some light regarding moving this thread from "lime light of current affairs" to "dark and unknown streets of F&R". ;-)

FJ

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Mar 2010 19:55 #
tamaazkhan
Member

Faarigh Jazbati

I imagine "Current Affairs" and "Faith and Religion" are labels given by the moderator to organize discussion.

As far as I can see the "The issue of Tabanni' is a "Faith and Religion" topic, albeit something that currently interests you.

Its unfortunate that "Faith and Religion" is what you describe as a "dark and unknown street". I agree more people should be involved in the discussion and learning of Islam, but the lack of enthusiasm on that front is not the moderators fault.

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Mar 2010 20:06 #
Patriot
Member

Actually faith and religion is a not a moderated forum.I do not see moderator present there.

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Mar 2010 20:09 #
FJ_ Pak
member

dear Tamaazkhan

Could you please educate me how

"The issue of Tabanni' is a "Faith and Religion" topic"

BTW dark and unknown streets was a istiaara for sunsaan aur ajnabi

FJ

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Mar 2010 20:22 #
Salam
member

ijtehad is about legislature and jurisprudence and is purely of technical nature applicable in political sphere-

i don't know how admin or someone thinks it is 'faith' related? unless they are secular and believe that islam is just a religion like others and should be separated from peoples lives-

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Mar 2010 2:55 #
RajputPuttar
Member

Dear Salam

Ijtehad is about "Islamic legislature" so , its purley religous affair.

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Mar 2010 3:01 #
LalBichoo
Blocked

I support Faith & Religion and also like lesser moderation there !

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Mar 2010 4:12 #
Salam
member

Well, this should be given space in current affairs because it is about governance model of Pakistan

this is not about someones personal 'faith', this is purely based on established methods, processes and sciences and should be debated as methods, processes, science and governance.

'personal faith' is something not related with this domain-

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Mar 2010 4:38 #
RajputPuttar
Member

Salam bahi,

Aap tu ummah kaay champion haain. Now , confining yourself to Pakistan only .

Bahi , mazzah nahi aayaa. Had it been from 'Jamaatiiyaa' i won't have minded it but u r a reasonable person .

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Mar 2010 4:46 #
Salam
member

RP Bhai,

lolzz

i tried to present my case in context of audience and the subject (pkpolitik)

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Mar 2010 4:50 #
zia m
Member

We have tried to discuss ijtehad in several threads in the past it always ends in brawls.

http://pkpolitics.com/discuss/topic/islam-and-modernity#post-81988

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Mar 2010 5:05 #
RajputPuttar
Member

Salam

Despite having a lot of respect for a gentleman like u , here is principled difference and i can't plead your case.

Aaap naay apna case khud kharab kiya haai :)

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Mar 2010 5:24 #
Salam
member

no problem, appreciate your respect

i don't mind admin's organizing strategy, i will continue to deliberate based on ideas/principles emanating from my ideology

it is seculars who can neither reject islam outrightly nor accept wholeheartedly :)

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Mar 2010 5:32 #
RajputPuttar
Member

Salam

"
it is seculars who can neither reject islam outrightly nor accept wholeheartedly :)

"

Very controversial statement. How can u claim this ? Bahi, may be a secular is better muslim than 'fundamentalist' ? Who is competent authority to decide apart from 'ALLAH' ?

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Mar 2010 5:47 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

Yaar, why are you people wasting so much time in 'munafqat' based love ?

The issue is simple. The Admin is denying ALL of that part of Islam which details how politics should be conducted.

By doing so, he ends up promoting people, rather than principles.

Its his fault;

(1) IF he's a Muslim, he's denying one big part of Islam

This can be considered a crime. Why ? Because it affects the well-being or interests of a lot! of people who are Muslims.

(2) If he's not a Muslim, well then it makes sense

Since a non-Muslim would never want Islam to rule. He will always put up his own version of politics, his own version of hegemony

Islam gives standards. Islam tells what is right and what is wrong.

Islam talks about justice. And non-Islam (anything or anyone) will always talk about injustice, sugar-coating it in such words, so it looks like justice.

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Mar 2010 5:48 #
Salam
member

RP,

who is competent authority to judge on human actions? that is what when we want to discuss under current affairs then it is moved to the back burner-

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Mar 2010 5:55 #
RajputPuttar
Member

Mr.hariskhan
"
The Admin is denying ALL of that part of Islam which details how politics should be done.
"

Since when u have become authority to decide on others islam?

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Mar 2010 5:55 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@RajputPuttar: Others's Islam ? What the heck ? How can anyone have their Islam ?

There is NO! mine or yours or anyone else's Islam.

If anyone wants 'his own Islam', then that is not Islam. It is anything but Islam.

Islam is only!! one!!, that which was sent by ALLAH ALMIGHTY.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

In every argument I'v had with 'RajputPuttar' here, he ends up saying;

(1) Since when u have become authority ?
(2) How do we know this is that ?
(3) Who will certify this ?
(4) etc etc

What he is doing is, he challenging/disputing everyone's credibility, everyone's authority. He's challenging credibility of 'everyone' and 'everything', save his own or the one he supports.

Now, what does that mean ?

The original conflict Mr. 'RajputPuttar' brings within our ranks is the chaos caused by his claim of;

(1) lack of 'credibility'
(2) lack of authority'

How does one counter this argument ?

I propose, this is the only argument that remains as a hurdle between us/Muslims and establishing of 'Khilafat'.

The day we counter this hurdle from 'RajputPuttar' here, that day Mr. 'RajputPuttar' will have no other argument. That day everyone can end this show of love of 'munafqat' to this guy. I'v already answered (addressed) ALL his other arguments.

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Mar 2010 6:41 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

It is the age old game of questioning credibility.

ALLAH ALMIGHTY made Muhammad (SAW) live 40! years of his life among Arabs, in order to establish credibility of Muhammad (SAW).

Only after that did ALLAH ALMIGHTY bless Muhammad (SAW) to stand up on the 'mimbar' (in urdu) of 'Nubuwwat'.

Why did ALLAH ALMIGHTY do that to Muhammad ? To establish his credibility. Because no! one could challenge credibility of Muhammad (SAW) at that time. Muhammad (SAW) was known as 'Saadiq' and 'Ameen' by everyone!.

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Mar 2010 6:49 #
RajputPuttar
Member

Mr.Harris

I don't challenge anyone's authority on his own issues but no one has autority to tell me what is isalm ?

Only Prophet PBUH had this autoirhty and he has done his duty.

Btw, since when u have become everyone ? ??

Aap ko khudai kaa bhi dawa haai , nabwat kaa bhi aur 'AALAAA' honey kaa bhii.

Allah aisey 'kazibeen' say bachey (Ameen).

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Mar 2010 7:40 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

Lo ji. Mr. 'RajputPuttar' thinks;

(1) no one can propagate Islam, after the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) died, because others are not prophets

(2) I'v become 'everyone'

AALA!

Is ka to matlab hai, tum keh rahe ho;

(1) no one can say, they believe in Islam, because Islam died with Muhammad (SAW) ?

(2) Untill Muhammad (SAW) comes back or re-lives, you have no reason to believe anyone on what Islam is, what it says, what are its guidelines, right ?

Do you seriously think any Muslim will believe you on this ?

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Mar 2010 7:51 #
FJ_ Pak
member

@ziam

I have gone through thethread you posted and in that thread every thing under the sun was discussed APART FROM IJTEHAD.

The very reason I initiated the thread about Tabanni and its importance to ijtehad and settling the disputes on the issue of difference of opinion that people are/were beating around the bush and NO one os addressing the real issue.

No one is discussing

* What is ijtehad and what is the process of ijtehad
* What is a difference in Fatwa and ijtehad
* What is the criterion to do ijtehad
* Is Ijtehad an individual effort or is there anything called a collective ijtehad
* What is a Asool(juristic princile) in Ijtehad
* How to judge the strength of the asool
* Ijtehad in personal matters and ijtehad in soceital matters
* Ijtehad in Ibadat and ijtehad in Muamlaat (Life's affairs)

* What significance the statement " The amr of the sultan settles the dispute" has in relation to ijtehad

* What is tabanni (Adoption of islamic rule),
* Who has the SOLE right to do tabanni and why
* What significance Tabanni has to ijtehad and what significane it has to settle the difference of opinion.

* Why we have the situation today of "my islam" and "your islam"

These are the few points form a large pool.

All these matters are matters of extreme importance to run affairs of life from personal ibadah to running the affairs of the state. The very absence of discussion on them has lead to the situation we have today and we are furher heading towards the abyss of anarchy and intolerance.

I hope people understand what I am trying to achieve by requesting the moderator to move the thread of tabanni to the current affairs

May Allah swt guide us all

FJ

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Mar 2010 8:21 #
FJ_ Pak
member

Dear RP and HK

My humble request to you both is that please leave your playground squabbles and be serious. Both of you are mature, intelligent adults and instead of discussing each other please discuss the subject matter.

A speacial request to HK:

Please have some patience and use the following
"Discretion is better part of Valour"

Otherwise I can ask Admin to start a speacial thread only for you two called " Clash of the Titans" :)

Dua go

FJ

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Mar 2010 8:28 #
azizi
Member

My Salam and salutes to RajputPuttar. Just keep elevating the level of allergy for these zealots. Even the best anti-histamine will not be a good remedy for them.

I offer my full support.

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Mar 2010 8:30 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@Faarigh Jazbati: I will ignore him more than I do, right now.

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Mar 2010 9:23 #
RajputPuttar
Member

FJ

I can't allow any insane fanatic to dictate me what islam is and preach his false beliefs in the name of islam to me.

What Prophet PBUH left is avialable to everyone(including me) and its my sole discreation authority to interpret it for myself and i solely will be responsible/answerable for that in 'hayat baad duniya'. Similarly , u or xyz has the authority to interpret for himself and he will be responsbile for that.

If my interpreation is not acceptable than how vice versa could hold good ?

Mr.Harris

I didn't say that nobody can preach after prophet. I only said that nobody after prophet pbuh claim that what he knows is 'the islam'. Let it to day of judgment that who knows the 'the isalm' . Btw, Muslimah Kazab and Mirza Qadiyani also used to make claims that they know and praech 'the islam'.

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Mar 2010 10:22 #
FJ_ Pak
member

Dear RP

Without prejudice about your target person (HK please just hold your Horses for a min ) for your statement

"I can't allow any insane fanatic to dictate me what islam is and preach his false beliefs in the name of islam to me"

This is the very essence of my thread for Tabanni. This is the very issue which is settled by the Tabanni. If you read my above post (@ziam), you will see that this is the very issue I am trying to highlight and discuss as a current affair matter but Alas! moderator has banished my thread to the obscurity lane of F&R.

FJ

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Mar 2010 10:31 #
RajputPuttar
Member

Dear FJ

Again , this is in 'your' islam that concept of 'Tabanni' exists. Probably not in mine .

Thats why it should be in faith & religion.

Althoguh even if its in current issues , i m not much fussed.

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Mar 2010 10:41 #
mjkk86
Member

religion is sensitive topic so one should be carefull before passing any remarks.
i don't know about admin's idelogy or his stance in relation to topics related to islam but i do feel that topics on religion brings alot of fuss, hatered and abuse for some users so it's kinda good if admin is not letting them post their topio.
btw i have seen too many champion of islam on pkpolitics and all of them are promoting one particular section of islam or let say particular fiqha, well pakistan does'nt belong to that fiqah so why should we give a ****.

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Mar 2010 10:44 #
FJ_ Pak
member

Dear RP

I am lost for words about your statement

"Again , this is in 'your' islam that concept of 'Tabanni' exists. Probably not in mine "

This is a general concept regading adoption of islamic rule, any islamic rule. When National assebly of any country or president of a country ADOPTS (Tabanni) a rule/legislation is it "Your Islam" or "my Islam" issue. The Tabanni is a concet and not the opinion of someone.

seems like you passed your judgment without even studying and understanding the issue just because I mentioned Islam.

Be open minded and dont have a tunnel vision about things.I did not expect a narrowmindedness from you.

FJ

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Mar 2010 10:49 #
RajputPuttar
Member

FJ

Elected representaive of masses has every right to make a law and that would be a binding since it will become law of land.

But , if u say that its 'the' islam , then thats not acceptable. 'The' islam is only known to GOD Almighty and was conveyed to 'the prophet'. No one else, can claim to be 'the auhtority' on islam.

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Mar 2010 11:01 #
FJ_ Pak
member

Dear RP

Now I understand your problem and mental confusion.

For you as long as the basis of the legislation is NON islam you have no problem with the RIGHT of the elected representative of masses to make the law and you will accept that as law of the land. The minute the law which has the basis and roots in islam even if that is Adopted (Tabanni) by the ELECTED REPRESENTATIVE OF MASSES you have a problem.

WoW man ! what happened to the good old principle of democracy, so democracy is only accepted as long as it does not take any thing from Islam. BRAVO !!!!!

FJ

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Mar 2010 11:12 #
psycho
Member

Freedom of Speech mean Salavery of mind

There is no freedom of speech in every foram of the world,

The freedom of speech is only illusion created by the developer of foram to attract people.

People always follow some rules.

Suppose i abuse someone, This is also freedom of speech.

In islam their is no concept of freedom of speech, u have always follow the rules. I don't believe in freedom of speech.

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Mar 2010 11:15 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@Faarigh Jazbati: ..and you were teaming up with this guy against me ?

AALA!

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Mar 2010 11:16 #
RajputPuttar
Member

Dear FJ

Probably i failed to convey what i meant or u r misinterpreting it .

Bahiya,
Elected representatives of masses have soverigen right to legislate on whatever based . I don't have any problem with any legislation done on the basis of islam .

But , Elected representiaves of islam can't tell me what are ibaadat , faraiz , sunnah or how to practice islam or to follow a particular fiqah. Thats my personal domain.

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Mar 2010 11:18 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

Ab ye banda personal freedom ki taraf bhage ga. haha!

I can only feel sorry for this guy.

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Mar 2010 11:20 #
RajputPuttar
Member

hariskhan

Tujhey bahgaa kaar hee kaheen jaaon gaa.

If u don't have the guts to hear another view point , why u r at a discussion board at all ? Go and gather some fanataics like yourself and give them a lesson.

I really feel sorry for you but Allah kaa hukaam.

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Mar 2010 11:24 #