shimatoree
Member
From Dawn.com
as reminded by a recent workshop in Islamabad, induced abortion even though it is illegal and thus unsafe.
Around 890,000 induced abortions take place annually and an estimated 197,000 women are hospitalised every year for complications.
So much for the ethics of the health care industry in the Muslim Ummah and their respect for life !
shimatoree
Member
mjkk86
Member
i guess abortion is prohibited in all religion.well in muslim ummah unprotectesex is common but sex before marriage is rarity so that balance out the equation.
RajputPuttar
Member
shimatoree & mjkk86 ,
Bahi, we are on 'pkpolitics' forum not on any ummah forum and my humble understanding is this forum is to discuss pakistani issues not anybody else.
So, i humbly request to confine the discussion to pakistan.
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
Check it out -> This guy is telling Muslims to only think of Pakistan, to let go of Muslim UMMAH.
How .. Muslim of him. haha!
RajputPuttar
Member
Harris
I don't need a certificate form u or mansoora. in your language STFU :)
Qalma'go
Member
Abortion - the World over, should have been the topic of this thread but than why not Pakistan.
Health care is primary and not secondary to this condition/state of getting pregnant, forced or as an act of consent.
More to do with awareness why to/why not to/and when to get pregnant.
How a pregnant woman should be taken care of, cared for is virtually non existent in Pakistan. I am talking here on behalf of majority and not just some isolated but media propagated cases.
mjkk86
Member
@rajput
thanx for telling us that we are on pk politics forum rather any ummah's. go and check the wider defination of politics and see if you can find any link to these topics or accept that you hate it just because word ummah represents muslims and it's not you cup of tea. huh what a mindset no wonder west laughs at wannabes.
As a normal human being I feel that the life starts just after the conception.
The choice of the parents ends when they concieve a child in the womb.
Abortion could be permitted only to save the life of a pragnant lady in case there is any medical complication.
Better to follow the clinically aproved methods to control the pregnancy and population what has become a social issue of the Century.
RajputPuttar
Member
mjkk86
my dear , u have ignored the prefix of 'pk' altogether. Would u mind searching for the meanings of pk as well.
I was born in pakistan and that thing made me a pakistani. Here , at 'pkpolitics' we are discussing the problems , issues and things of interest to masses of pakistan. I m least bothered by whats happening in morroco or cuba or maritusis. IF i have to discuss these issuse , i should go to appropriate forum althoguh these would also come under the broader heading of 'politics'
zia m
Member
One should not have to resort to abortion with the exception of cases of rape and health reasons.
People should be educated to adopt preventive measures.
Qalma'go
Member
What parents? Parents as considered being married out of wedlock, like in USA and greater part of western world devoid of family values. Doubt if they have any left!
Being a socially accepted/acknowledged spouse according to recognized religions the world over is an accepted way before anyone should even think of contributing towards population increase.
Bastards to be born out of wedlock are and remain taboo for religious societies and not...for societies based on 'common law relationships'.
hkbajwa
Member
@ Naseem
What was marriage in arabia 1400 years ago other than two people announcing their relationship in front of witnesses? Was there a bureaucratic process? Was a mullah required to be present? Did they sign papers and stamp stamps?? Did their wedlock get registered in writing in three different organs of state??
No they did not.. Common law marriages are no less valid in the eyes of God than a properly "registered" and "approved" marriage.
Believe me when i tell you that "family" values come from families. Families exist in all shapes and sizes the world over. Just because you have a subjective perception of what a family should look like, doesn't invalidate the support and love that different families provide to each other the world over.
How can a nation claim to have "family values" when it barely acts according to human values??
hkbajwa
Member
@ Naseem
What most people here tend to describe as family "values" is in fact a hierarchical and patriarchal system of control.
Within this system , some families instill good values, and others bad values.
In most of the western world that hierarchical and patriarchal system doesn't exist and thus this particular mechanism of control doesn't exist. Yet an equal number of families transmit good values as bad values.
The shape of a famile makes no difference to what values are taught them... it only makes a difference in how they are taught
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@hkbajwa: Are you a Muslim ?
If you are not a Muslim, why are you lecturing Muslims about family, family values ? Do Muslims accept your family values ? No. Muslims learn their social values from Islam, not from non-Muslims.
Shock
Members
@hariskhan
Jamaati terrorists shouldn't tell us where to learn our values from.
shimatoree
Member
The issue I had wished to raise is that the lack of respect for life does not appear to be very important. If there are about a million abortions- in Pakistan alone, you can well imagine the number in the entire Muslim world. Do these women who go for such " operation" consider what they are doing ? If not why not.
And what about the obstetricians and gynecologists and Lady Health Visitor etc who carry out these procedures ?
The inescapable truth is that though we can trumpet all we want about the ethics in a Muslim Society- the facts on the ground say otherwise.
The entire picture is full of deceptive slogans but very little substance.
For a society which permits abortions for population control yet complains about suicide bombings and terror related deaths of innocent people- well enough said.
What can be done ? Well something else as what we have now is not working.
hkbajwa
Member
@hkbajwa: Are you a Muslim ?
@ Haris
that is certainly none of your concern nor am i going to dignify such a statement with a justification. Suffice it to say that i have an opinion on family dynamics that are in line with Quranic edict.
According to the Quran, two people must announce their wedlock before 2 witnesses to be considered a legally married couple. No paperwork, authentication by mullah, signatures, stamps or fees are required for a couple to be considered a bone fide couple in Islam. Most of the marriages that take place in rural pakistan have nothing more than a verbal committment in the presence of witnesses to make them official.
Such is the nature of the common-law relationships that exist in much of the western world today. Two people decide to be together. They apprise their families and friends of this union. They live together have children together and grow old together. Is that not what a marriage is?
The problem is that clerics of all religions do not wish to allow any union to take place without their involvement. If people were to cement their marital status without ht einvolvement of clerical bureaucrats, the churches, synagogues, mosques, temples etc etc would lose a lucrative source of income. They basically make a bundle of money by "authenticating" and "approving" a union, even though they are in no position to do either.
Clerics of all religions have hijacked the institution of marriage and made themselves an integral part of it. Western societies are smart in the fact that they ahve cut these salvation peddlers right out of the equation. They bear witness before God and their fellow and in doing so they fulfill the criteria for a legal nikah. Who are you to term their unions any less valid and term their children b@st@rds?
You say muslims learn their family values from Islam? Well not really. If it were so, then they might also learn some human values from Islam and put them into practice.. but they don't. They continue to follow in the errant footsteps of their fathers because of this "family value" system we have here. They lie, cheat, steal, corrupt, kill, destroy and exploit in the same measure (if not more) than those societies without this so-called "family value system".
And i'll d**n well lecture people all i wish about family values. In fact i consider it my duty to do so. I am a fortunate person who has seen and experienced the various family structures that exist in different parts of the world and i can tell you that my protestant christian side of the family is just as loving, supportive and morally upstanding as any family in Pakistan. And this is so in spite of the fact that few of them have ever registered their relationships with any religious authority. They have borne witness before God and their fellows by declaring their relationship openly, and that in my eyes makes them a legitimately married couple.
The purpose of a nikah is not to fulfill some ignorant ritual criteria, but to ensure that all relationships are open and accounted for. The Nikah as in the Prophet's(pbuh) time has only one purpose and that is to apprise all people int he community of the existence of a relationship so no conflict or misunderstanding my occur. No more and no less.
hkbajwa
Member
@ Shimatoree
DO you know what would drastically reduce the number of abortions in our society?? If our society decriminalized premarital sex and de-stigmatized unwed mothers.
It is because of the harsh and often deadly consequences of unwanted pregnancy in Pakistan that so many women resort to quack doctors to help them get rid of the foetus. In doing so they put their own lives at risk.
Has anybody ever stopped to wonder what extreme pressure there must be on a woman to go to this extent?? And abortion is no trivial matter and no woman ever fully recovers from such a violent procedure. I call it violent because losing a baby (voluntarily or involuntarily) is massively traumatic to any woman. It is extremely rare for a woman to go through an abortion more than once, simply because it is so scarring.
That is why fewer abortions take place in those nations where sex and abortion are decriminalized. It is because there are no unjust societal consequences that ostracize, condemn or kill unwed mothers, and thus they can choose to have the baby rather than trying to get rid of it to save their own lives.
Pre-marital sex must be de-criminalized and abortion must be possible under safe circumstances, if we as a society are ever to rid ourselves of such acts. It is in trying to legislate and police such things that we create the very circumstances that make the situation worse instead of better.
RajputPuttar
Member
Harris
Whats problem with u ? Why u ask stupid questions/raise fingers about others religion/islam ?
R u a muslim at all ?
R u an authority to judge anybody's islam ?
Control yourself . U r no way a better muslim/human being than any of the other members.
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
(1) Since when did asking someone if they are a Muslim or not become wrong, become a crime or a curse ?
(2) Why are you people so scared of this question ?
LalBichoo
Blocked
hariskhan,
Are you Jamaati, Shia, Barelvi, Deobandi, Wahabbi, Salafi, Shafa'ai, Malaki, Sufi, Takfiri, Punjpiri, or Ismaili ???
@Lal Bichoo
I think he is Kashmiri
ajhons
Member
RajPut bhai
That's the root cause of our problem. I always think that Im right rest of the world is wronge.Im the only true follower of islam andtrue love of Prophet(PBUH) and rest of the people are not.
They day we start respecting other people everything will be great.So don't get upset just follow the beat of your heart and let others speaks.
Haris Bhai, if you rember I once said, we should'nt be too rigid in our opinion.You speaks a lot of sence with cradible supporting argument but sometimes with a bitterness.
No tension bhai, Mazay say zindagi guzaro
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@sociopath: I wonder why you can have more than two IDs and I can't ?
@ajhons: Salam pointed this out in another forum. We have people among us in our society, even on this forum, who claim to give us the best of ideas, yet their ideas don't come from Islam. Their ideas come from the secular west or other ideologies.
I want to establish this crystal clear difference here, so it becomes a standard for everyone to see, to know.
There is a significant! difference here, that we Muslims need to realize.
So far, I haven't even started questioning others on their ideas or brought up comparative ideas. I'v just begun with asking if people are Muslims. There is nothing! wrong in this.
I don't feel even the slightest bit of shame in asking this question.
LalBichoo
Blocked
hariskhan,
"""@hkbajwa: Are you a Muslim ?
If you are not a Muslim, why are you lecturing Muslims about family, family values ? """
>>>
Are you Jamaati, Shia, Barelvi, Deobandi, Wahabbi, Salafi, Shafa'ai, Malaki, Sufi, Takfiri, Punjpiri, or Ismaili ???
hkbajwa
Member
@ Haris
I consider myself a muslim. What difference does that make. My beliefs, my perceptions and my opinions will clearly have one such as you state that i am NOT muslim. And as a result we get into an argument about what a muslim is or is not.
as we all know that decision lies wholly with God and it will not be settled for an y one of us until we die and face judgement.
In light of this debate it is also a completely irrelevant since being a muslim is only an AFFILIATION. it is in no way a clear indicator of the beliefs of the individual.
I provided you with a description of common law marriages and gave my argument for their validity based on the sunnah and the Quran edict governing the process of marriage. How about you argue that instead of drawing lines and finding borders between people.
This is a forum for PERSONAL OPINIONS. While affiliation may influence an individual's personal opinions, it doesn't change the fact that what we are debating here are the personal perspectives and opinions of the present debaters.
@Haris Khan
Ur imagination is limited. U can't wonder beyond the wonder. That's the reason.
It's game of mind brother, who have mind he wins, but i don't have any mind to mind
LalBichoo
Blocked
hkbajwa Sb,
I salute you for your rational posts and tolerance shown towards some Islamofascists present on Discuss Forum who consider themselves as holier than thou !
Plzzz keep doing good work !
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@hkbajwa: (1) That is where you are wrong. This affiliation has more worth than the ideas.
When this affiliation had more worth, Muslims were strong as individuals, as a collective, as a nation.
(2) You may think in secular terms, but you are a minority of this nation, for the majority does not think in secular terms.
RajputPuttar
Member
Mr.Harris
"
We have people among us in our society, even on this forum, who claim to give us the best of ideas, yet their ideas don't come from Islam.
"
I consider u one of such people. Now establish that your ideas come from islam .
LalBichoo
Blocked
hariskhan,
"""(2) You may think in secular terms, but you are a minority of this nation, for the majority does not think in secular terms. """
>>>
Stop living in fools' paradise now !
Do we have to tell you what happened in NA-55??
Do we need to tell you amount of zakat JI received in NA-55 ??
ajhons
Member
Haris Bhai, what about Quaid e Azam.Most of the rligious leaders were against him only because of his seculer thoughts.The term seculer is widely used in wronge meaning.Its not against religion.Its about the tolerance between idealogical defination of religion.This also a fact that most fanatics are not seculer.
I respect your ideas of religon but if you go deep down you will find thatthe beauty of our religon is that it is a fine blend of seculer approch with orthodoxity and ability to accept and harmonize with the difference of opinion
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@ajhons: I could write books to answer your question(s).
I wonder if I would be successful in sharing my ability, my power of visualizing things through it.
Did you by any chance see the program Dunya Today March 08, 2010 ?
Did you understand the points the host of the show, and his Indian guest raised in this program ?
RajputPuttar
Member
Mr.Harris
"
We have people among us in our society, even on this forum, who claim to give us the best of ideas, yet their ideas don't come from Islam.
"
I consider u one of such people. Now establish that your ideas come from islam .
@Haris Khan
U said I could write books to answer your question, but it's not powerful dialog
ajhons
Member
Haris Bhai Sorry I couldn't watch that programme.Remote of my TV is sole property of my three old daughter till 10 PM.
Im just trying to point out that seculer ideas are mis interprated.They support religion.They give strength to its soul.Its all about respecting different thoughts and this is how you makeother people respect ad listen to your ideas
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@Psycho: By that, I meant, so many inter-connected facts have to be presented to answer that question, that I would need to write entire books.
I can visualize it. I wish I could show you that which I can visualize.
ajhons
Member
Haris Bhai, I have my common sence, visualizing and facinating are two different things.I may not have that degree of history knowledge but whatever I've read I can sence that Both Quaid-e-Azam and his oposition religious muslim leader were on same track.They all wanted independant identity.But the Religious leaders misinterpretate his seculer ideas.They took it against Islam which time showed was wronge.Otherwise there is no doubt about the effort of all of those who stand with or against the idea
sasherwani
Members
If someone is raped and gets pregnant, she she be allowed to get an abortion? or should she take care of the child?
hkbajwa
Member
@ Haris
Basically you are saying that it is more important to SAY that you are muslim than to believe in Islam..
You are very wrong in thinking that muslims were stronger when affiliation was the most important. In fact from the point that affiliation became the most important aspect of being muslim, the ummah has proceeded on a downward spiral that has lasted many centuries and continues today.
Sectarianism is a direct result of affiliation being more important than belief. Are you trying to tell me that's a good thing??
@ Shasherwani
You pose an intersting question about whether a rape victim should be allowed an abortion or not. However that is irrelevant as long as social reality dictates that an unwed mother sshould be ostracized along with her child.
As long as society continues to give unwed mothers ample incentive to have an abortion, it does not matter whether you allow it or not. They will do as they deem fit for their own survivial. And you know as well as anyone that being an unmarried and pregnant in Pakistan can very well be a death sentence for a woman.
It is not until the stigma against unwed mothers is lifted that KEEPING the child actually becomes a viable option.
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@hkbajwa: (1) It is MORE important to be loyal to;
(a) ALLAH ALMIGHTY
(b) HIS last Messenger, Muhammad (SAW)
(c) Companions (RA, RAA) of Muhammad (SAW)
(d) Quran
(e) Hadees
than to say we are Muslims.
(2) When Muslims had no science and technology, they were conquering two super powers (Roman, Byzantine) of their time, simultaneously, based on the power of their affiliation with all of the above, their ideology.
The nations, the people who were conquered, they remain Muslims to-date. After passing of 14 centuries, people still remember them, want their kind of rule to return. This shows the mark they left on the people.
There were no protests, no forced conversions.
The Companions (RA, RAA) of Muhammad (SAW) ruled over a far bigger Empire than Pakistan based on their affiliation to the above. They not only ruled over it, but maintained it, expanded it.
Can you believe it, the Companions of Muhammad (SAW) won over Khurasaan, the people of Khurasaan, the present Afghanistan ? The place where we have seen 2 empires of today go down the drain, in these last 40 years ?
They fought the British Empire for 80! years. The British finally decided, it was worthless to fight with them.
No super power in the world has been able to rid them of their loyalty to Islam.
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
In the era of Companions (RA, RAA) of Muhammad (SAW), a stipend was set for ALL! new-borns by the state, so no woman had any financial problems in bearing new children.
RajputPuttar
Member
hariskhan
Bahiya , u will decide who is loyal or not ? Leave it to ALLAH for the day of judgement.
Don't try to become 'KHUDAA" , phley insannaiat tu seeikh loo.
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@hkbajwa: It is exactly! because of sidelining our loyalty to our civilization, our culture, our ideology (Islam) that our downward spiral began.
RajputPuttar
Member
Our civilization and culture is sub-continent /indus valley not anything else.
hkbajwa
Member
@ Haris
No it was not because it was sidelined. Those who sidelined affiliation in pursuit of enlightenment caused no damage. It was those "muslims" who created criteria for affiliation and embarked on a mission to gather more affiliates into their particular group who caused all the damage. It was when they considered the size of the group to be more important than the quality of the group that the muslim ummah started declining.
Those who gave more importance to their personal conduct and to their connection with Allah rather than their affiliation with XYZ group of muslims are the true momins. And they never had a hand in the decline of Islam.
raheb
Member
Back to topic- Abortion.
According to biology, a child in mothers womb develop its lungs after about 14-16 weeks. It means if that child comes out (born) at that time so he/she can breath by his/her ownself, means capable to breath and keep it alive. Abortation at that time will be consider as murder, so NOT allowed at that stage. BUT before that it cannot survive by its own. It cannot breath.
And now it may surprise most of you, it is Islamic version.
raheb
RajputPuttar
Member
Rehab Bahiya
"it is islamic version" according to u .
and i agree to that to an extent as weell.
But,
Its not "The Islamice Version" as it will vary from man to man. We should be open to listening & respecting others islam.
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
(1) You talk about our local culture, in subcontinent. If and when that local culture comes in conflict with Islam, I reject local customs and adhere to Islam's principles, laws, rules. It improves lives of Muslims
If you are negating Islam, then you are my enemy.
(2) There is my Islam or his Islam or your Islam or others's Islam. Islam is only one. Either accept it or leave it
You can be weak with Islam. That is acceptable. But if you are disloyal with Islam, that is UNACCEPTABLE.
You must log in to post.
