Discuss » Faith and Religion

Abdus Salam Documentary (turned into religious h***)

(161 posts)
  1. yahya
    Member

    This thread is being moved to F&R forum for non-compliance.
    -Admin
    ------------------------------------------------------

    I received below email. If anyone feels it's a worthy cause, feel free to support.

    ---

    Dear Friends,

    Thank you for your support over the past few years. Thanks to contributions we received in 2009, we began filming in Pakistan early this year. To view a few behind the scenes photos please visit our press page at http://www.abdussalamdocufilm.com/press.php

    We are still far away from our target of 500,000 USD, an amount needed to support on-location filming in various countries, the purchase of archival footage, and research, production, marketing and distribution. As a tribute to Salam, we hope to use any proceeds from the final docufilm to advance science education in developing countries.

    The project was recently featured in The Friday Times (attached). The interview spurred a number of donations from various sources.

    If you would like to help with this cause:

    - Forward this email or our donate link below to interested friends and family
    - Join our facebook group from http://www.abdussalamdocufilm.com
    - And of course, every penny counts—please make a donation at http://www.abdussalamdocufilm.com/donate.php

    (We are also seeking larger sums as investment. Please contact us at info@kailoola.com)

    The team warmly thanks you for your continued support!

    Best regards,

    Omar Vandal & Zakir Thaver

    Executive Producers
    Abdus Salam Docufilm

    http://www.abdussalamdocufilm.com
    omar&zakir@kailoola.com

    Posted 1 year ago on 28 Feb 2010 18:12 #
  2. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    - Is Abdus Salam the only scientist Pakistan every produced ?

    - Why consistently, only highlight, only talk about Abdus Salam ?

    - Why don't you talk about the thousands of other Pakistanis' ? I'v never heard you talking about them, their plight, in this way, why ?

    Posted 1 year ago on 28 Feb 2010 20:09 #
  3. Shock
    Members

    @hariskhan

    There is no Pakistani scientist that has the kind of caliber as Abdus Salam. We know why Jamaat hates him.

    Posted 1 year ago on 28 Feb 2010 20:32 #
  4. Fahim23
    Member

    @Hariskhan

    He is the only nobel laureate Pakistan has ever produced!

    Posted 1 year ago on 28 Feb 2010 20:39 #
  5. RajputPuttar
    Member

    Noble prize is Zionist concipiracy:)

    Harris bahi , come on

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Mar 2010 1:15 #
  6. expakistani
    Member

    any grantee that donation for such movie wouldnt be use for
    Ahemdyaa jamat? or qadyani firqa?

    i respect what Dr Abdulsala has done in his field or for pakistan but at same time i am not willing to support Ahmediya jamat or their version of religion.

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Mar 2010 1:20 #
  7. zia m
    Member

    I'm a big fan of Dr salam, they should raise money to build a science institute in his name that is what he wanted.
    Documentary is not going to benefit the people but i could be wrong.

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Mar 2010 1:44 #
  8. Raavi
    Member

    "they should raise money to build a science institute in his name"

    I wish Pakistan does that! Good Idea and people would benefit!

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Mar 2010 1:48 #
  9. yahya
    Member

    @zia m:

    My colleague was awestruck when a kid outside Salam's house in Jhang not only knew who the eminent scientist was, but was able to tell Omar that Salam had worked on the electroweak unification theory.

    This incident proves that Salam's story also provides an amazing opportunity to educate children in physics.

    http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/birth-of-a-star-abdus-salam-sal

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Mar 2010 2:19 #
  10. I am not sure what contribution did Dr. Salam make to Pakistan's advancement. He was given the highest job but he quit to advance political agenda of his heretic religious masters. Pakistan does not owe him anything.

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Mar 2010 2:21 #
  11. yahya
    Member

  12. This article does not add anything new. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of Pakistani Ph.D's. Many are working in Pakistan. Every Ph.D has something unique to offer. Bottom line is he quit when he could do something. He was big and famous for himself. What is there for Pakistan to celebrate about a runaway.

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Mar 2010 2:53 #
  13. hkbajwa
    Member

    I find it absolutely ridiculous that such nonsense exists around abdus salam.

    The guy was a bloody scientist who cared only for the advancement of research. Ask any scientist in pakistan or indeed the world and they will tell you that he was also an exeptional teacher. He was a man respected in his field and sought only to further scientific progress.

    Yet here in pakistan his scientific achievements and his status as a world renowned researcher has been completely disregarded because he belonged to the wrong faith. How his faith had anything to do with his work as a physicist, nobody can explain. That's because it had no relation.

    Our country ought to have respected him as a loyal pakistani citizen who brought honor to Pakistan in global science community. Yet instead the most important thing that is remembered about him is not his contributions to science, but his religious affiliation (even though that has no bearing on his contributions). And because of his religious affiliation, our country has disassociated itself from a worthy man of renown. How ignorant can a nation be.

    This is the same guy who could have been the first representative of a muslim country as the secretary general of UNESCO. Instead Zia lobbied against a citizen of his own country. Great friggin move

    @ Haris

    Abdus Salam was Pakistan's first and only nobel laureate. Not that the nobel prize is the most important thing in the world, but it shows that he was a very highly respected scientist on a global scale. Why should this nation, from where he started his learning and research, not be proud of him. He was a sterling example of the intellects the Pakistani educations ystem can produce... but no.. he belonged to the wrong religion.

    You say that only Abdus Salam is highlighted and talked about.. that genuinely is NOT the case.. pakistan is one of the few ocuntries int he world where he is all but IGNORED as a scientist, because he belonged to the wrong religion.

    Every time somebody wishes to bring his name to the forefront, there are people like you and other intolerant bigots who try to crush it... not because he wasn't a great scientist, but because he belonged to the wrong religion.

    And trust me, if any other Pakistani could manage to achieve the level of Abdus Salam's respect in the global research community, they would be talked about and honored . But only if they belong to the right religion.

    @ Expakistani

    This documentary is meant to honor a great scientist. What the heck does that have to do with the ahmaddiya community?? I just don't get why everybody else makes such a big deal of his religious affiliation when it has no relevance to his contributions as a scientist?

    @ Gujjartalwar

    Abdus Salam left Paksitan because he could not be a scientist in peace here. In the rest of the world people focused on his research. In pakistan they spit on his work as a scietist and focused only on his religious affiliation. If you were an expert in nuclear physics, yet everybody in Pakistan were only concerned with the fact that you are Gujjar, you would leave too.

    And i fail to see what "agenda of his religious masters" he was trying to further. He was dedicated to science and research. What proof do you really have other than your own bigotry?

    @ Everyone

    It is shameful that we as a nation are so caught up in sectarian hatred, that we fail to recognize achievements that have nothing to do with religion. Abdus Salam was a patriotic pakistani who wished to advance his country's science and research. Yet we chased him out of the country for something totally unrelated to his science and to his loyalty to Pakistan.

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Mar 2010 5:20 #
  14. Salam
    member

    okay abdus salam was a great scientist and pakistan should have taken advantage of his capabilities but it is silly to see that how a technical skill is being seen through the lens of his beliefs?

    when i hire a professional to build my project do i see his technical capability or see his personal beliefs? he was a technical asset but not utilized to his potential.

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Mar 2010 6:51 #
  15. Pakistanis have bad luck as far as faith of the people who advance it is concerned, sometimes the country with due reservation is charmed by a Qadiyani, sometime it is an Ismaili Khoja, sometimes an Aga Khani, sometimes Shias and sometimes seculars. The country likes to see supposedly regular faith people do something good, but when they do it the immediate notion of corruption in disguise turns up. The mind just can't fathom of Oy ye who don't believe to carry the flag- very unpleasant to accept the good consequences of a fellow heretic countryman's actions.

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Mar 2010 16:50 #
  16. zingaro
    Member

    Was there any need to bring this guy Abdul Salam here and discuss him and try to prove that he was this and that? His chapters has been closed so who are the people who try to open this discussion again?

    Forget about him and close this thread ... thats all

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Mar 2010 16:55 #
  17. Haris Khan,

    I am not surprised with your answers (or rather counter questions). But the dichotomy of your post with “Salam” has puzzled me a lot. Jamatis too can disagree on some issues. I wonder who is the true face of a Jamati?

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Mar 2010 17:11 #
  18. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @Shock: @Fahim23: Do you ever ponder on why there haven't been more than one from Pakistan, since Pakistan was created ?

    After-all, this IS a nation of millions! of intelligent people.

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Mar 2010 18:08 #
  19. @hkbajwa
    "And i fail to see what "agenda of his religious masters" he was trying to further. He was dedicated to science and research. What proof do you really have other than your own bigotry?"

    Bajwa Ji, the Guy resigned his prestigious post to protest anti-qadiani legislation at the time. Isn't that serving a political purpose. Which army in the world celebrates its deseters?

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Mar 2010 18:23 #
  20. quaidkamazaar
    Member

    @ hariskhan,

    because it takes a person to invent/discover something, a theory, an equation of some sort. some Scientific phenomenon.

    Abdus Salam did that.

    others were not as genius as him and could not become inventors discoverers in Pakistan.

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Mar 2010 18:26 #
  21. yahya
    Member

    "Do you ever ponder on why there haven't been more than one from Pakistan, since Pakistan was created ?"

    Because sadly our universities are now ruled by goons not intellectuals.

    Ring any bells?

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Mar 2010 18:28 #
  22. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @yahya: O .. you really think so, huh ?

    Can you think of any better reasons or should I start making fun of you, now ?

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Mar 2010 18:32 #
  23. AoA All

    Guys

    I dont understand why we are stuck with issue of nationality, etnicity, faith or race of the sceintists. When it comes to sceince or technology we need to rise above these things as sceince and technology does not belong to any religion, race, colour or nation. Sceince and technology serves the humanity and every human being benefits from the work of a sceintist. Do we care whether the laptop was invented by a jew or christian or muslim or whoever.

    Also we need to get out of this mindset that there should be a pakistani or muslim nobel laureate in physics/chemistry/maths/biology/econimics etc etc. In todays global age no one nation has the monopoly on sceince and no nation should have one. So guys chill out and enjoy the inventions of everyone and make this earth a better place for humanity.

    FJ

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Mar 2010 18:44 #
  24. @"I dont understand why we are stuck with issue of nationality, etnicity, faith or race of the sceintists."

    Because we are firm believer in شخصیت پرستی
    We do not process what is being said but who it is from. Dr. Prof. Abdul Salam is our kafir, we do not quite associate with him. Were he a Jewish noble laureate, we would have gladly included this theories in our textbooks.

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Mar 2010 20:39 #
  25. hkbajwa
    Member

    @ gujjar

    If a person who has dedicated his life to furthering research and science (including laying the base for Pakistan's nuclear capability) is told that his faith is unacceptable, and people from his community are singled out for discriminatory legislation, how is a person supposed to feel.

    Instead of trying to oppose the legislation, instead of taking his grievances to the international community, indeed instead of creating a fuss about it, the professor chose to leave the country he had served loyally his whole life.

    That is not political activism, but rather a complete disassociation from it.

    His only objective was his science. When he found himself subject to discriminatory laws, liable for prosecution and death simply for calling himself a muslim he chose to leave the country where he could be embroiled in non-scietific political debate.

    This is not serving any political purpose whatsoever. The only thing it did was deprive a whole generation of pakistan scietists and researchers of the benefit of abdus salam's knowledge and expertise.

    I ask you.. suppose the pakistani state decided to pass a law singling out gujjars for discrimination, would you not also leave??

    Professor abdus salam could have been a great asset to the acedemia of Pakistan. Instead he was chased out of the country because he refused to get involved in petty religious politics.

    Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 4:36 #
  26. hkbajwa
    Member

    @ Gujjar

    There is no army in the world that celebrates its deserters, but all soldiers are considered equal in the army irrespective of ethnic or religious affiliation. The army is a brotherhood. No soldier is told that he is any less than his brothers-in-arms.

    But in Pakistan we chose to tell abdus salam that he was not part of the brotherhood. The pakistani nation betrayed him when they singled him out for discriminatory legislation. instead of reactin g with anger, he did the most honorable thing.. he made a silent exit.

    Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 4:40 #
  27. Salam
    member

    one man's just legislation is another man's discriminatory legislation, but professor should have respected law of the land as preached by their 'prophet'

    Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 4:41 #
  28. Salam
    member

    off topic posts should be avoided :)

    Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 4:48 #
  29. LalBichoo
    Blocked

    That's not an off-topic post at all !
    Please answer my question !

    Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 4:49 #
  30. Salam
    member

    yes bichoo it is off-topic and it might get removed because you have habit of crying to admin/mods

    Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 4:51 #
  31. hkbajwa
    Member

    I have to admit i find this thread to be moot. The simple fact is that a scientist is a scientist. His research has nothing to do with his religious affiliation.

    Unfortunately in this world there are two kinds of people. There are those who look beyond superficial affiliations and there are those who consider affiliations to be of a greater importance than the individual.

    Rightly thinking people have the capacity to accept Abdus Salam as a great scientist of whom our nation should have been proud. Prejudiced bigots willfully ignore his contributions and would rather discard the benefit he could have given our country, based on nothing more than his religious affiliation. How his affiliation could have made his electro weak theory heretical or un-islamic is of course not possible to answer since there is no relation betweent eh two.

    The sad bit is that we have a sick discriminatory mindset in pakistan that in some twisted universe can justify the human rights violation that is the anti-ahmadi legislation. Those who consider the invalidation of Abdus Salam's contribution as acceptable as a result of this legislation simply to justify the illogical, hateful and discriminatory legislation that is the anti-ahmadi legislation of this country.

    What really riles me is that some people say that the topic is OVER. Just because one generation has ratified and institutionalized discrimination does not make it right and it certainly does not mean that the issue is OVER> The issue will never be over until we as a nation realize that we can not progress until we rid ourselves of this medieval mindset and such archaic "laws".

    Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 4:51 #
  32. Salam
    member

    i can feel your pain as depicted in above post but ahmadi are non-muslim per the law of land and ahmadi should accept the law as they accepted british law per guidance of their 'prophet'

    Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 4:53 #
  33. hkbajwa
    Member

    @ Salam

    The professor DID respect the law of the land, which is why he LEFT. There is a difference between respecting the law of the land and liking it. When in pakistan one must follow Pakistani law. The professor never did anything other than that. Hoever if he found the law to be distasteful and wrong he had two chices.. He could either create a fuss and unrest and become an activist.. or he could leave.

    I'm sure you are familiar witht he concept of Hijrat. If you cannot make your life in one place, then instead of creating conflict, it is better to just leave silently.

    The professor did the honorable and islamic thing in leaving. The only losers were the thinkers and scientists of pakistan who lost a great mind from their midst.

    You say:
    one man's man's justice legislation is another man's discriminatory legislation,

    Well such a statement would be accurate if justice was a zero-sum game. But that's the thing about justice. It does not require somebody to actually LOSE anything.

    The ahmadis were doing nothing to rob anybody else of their rights. If you can define how preaching and practicing a religion (right or wrong) deprives anybody else of justice, then please be my guest. Fact is however that it does not create injustice. However this reactive legislation singling out a specific religious group DOES deprive the ahmadis of their human rights.

    This legislation is institutionalized discrimination.. it is certainly not "justice", and i would thank you to not refer to this gross violation of human decency as "justice"

    Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 5:05 #
  34. hkbajwa
    Member

    @ Salam

    No ahmadi denies the law or considers himself above it. They don't have like or support it though. But in no way do ahmadis engage in underhand activities to have this law repealed against the wishes of the nation. But it is a fervent hope that eventually the pakistani nation will gain the wisdom and confidence to do away with such stupidity.

    Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 5:07 #
  35. Salam
    member

    he respected the law by silently rejecting it, well what else he could have done except to quit in protest to make noise?

    now, regarding what ahmadi were doing or what they were not doing is another debate, but pepsi can not use cocacola trademark to sell their beverage- simple

    using false trademark to further different product is corruption and deception which should be stopped -sorry

    Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 5:09 #
  36. hkbajwa
    Member

    @ Salam

    I really like the pepsi and cocacola example. I happen to work in advertising so allow me to expand this analogy a bit.

    Pepsi is one brand... Coca is another brand.. Likewise RC is a third brand. You are right that one cannot try to pass off one's own drink as any of the above brands. TO do so would be plagiarism and an infringement of copyright law.

    But the funny thing is that they are all three COLAS.

    Any drink that fits the basic criteria of being sugary, dark and carbonated is entitled to define its product as a COLA.

    Let's extrapolate the analogy. Sunni, Shia, Wahabi and the 69 other sects of Islam are the various brands like pepsi, RC and Coke. The PRODUCT however is Islam.

    Now the variations of what they believe is Islam varies across the spectrum. Some brands don't consider other brands to even BE islam (just like Coke might not think RC is a cola). Yet none deprive the others of calling their product a cola. Instead tey depend on the consumer to be able to distinguish and PREFER their brand to other brands.

    The ahmadis aren't attempting to take over somebody else's brand. They only wish to have their right to call their product COLA. that is something that is public property because it is a product name.

    Now the main debate is that ahmadis aren't even allowed to call their product a cola. Who has the authority to claim that i ask you? Is it other makers of Colas or is it the consumers?

    The ahmadis consider Mohammad (pbuh) to be the Seal of the Prophets (with a different interpretation of "seal"). They consider the Quran to be the FInal Book. They consider Islam to be the Final Religion. they believe in the Day of Judgement, all of the prophets and the supremacy of One God. their difference lies in who they have identified as the Imam Mehdi. Based on this, how can anyone other than God himself deprive them of the right of calling their product a Cola?

    Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 5:24 #
  37. Salam
    member

    right, it is the base product or the common denominator that rejects ahmadi as out of common denominator.

    now this becomes debatable because ahmadi consider themselves part of the common denominator where as all other do not accept this claim based on some principles

    without going further into the debate of what is sect and what is 'maslak' (difference of opinion), I like to say that wahabi, sunni, baralvi etc are not sects they are 'maslaks' meaning they have same common ground but may be difference of opinion on certain rulings which is perfectly fine as even sahaba had difference of opinion on matters such as talaaq.

    well, after much of debate all muslims unanimously rejected ahmadi belief to be out of islam, may be ahmadi don't like this ruling but i think they should accept the law of land just as they accepted british as their masters and obeyed their law as their law, this is inline with the preaching of their 'prophet' mirza ghulam ahmad qadiyyani

    i don't mean to derail abdussalam thread to ahmadi thread, but wanted to explain certain terms that i think are important to clarify.

    Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 5:51 #
  38. khanseena1
    Member

    Abdus Salam deserves at the bare minimum a Universtity named after him in Pakistan. He made us proud and we as a nation humiliated him based on his beliefs.

    Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 5:57 #
  39. Salam
    member

    i think it is incorrect to term constitutional change as something done to personally target one ahmadi guy to humiliate him?

    he could have continued to serve in pakistan just like other ahmadi are doing today

    Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 6:03 #
  40. hkbajwa
    Member

    @ Salam

    Yaar i had written a long winded reply which got deleted before i could post it.. ^&$*^&@#(^$*@... challow.. here goes again

    It is one thing when all manufacturers of cola get together and single out one particular product as a non-cola. It is quite another when all other guardians of islam get together and term one particular belief as a non-islam.

    Two things:

    Firstly, the authority on whether something is islam or not is only God. It is for him alone to judge and not for anybody else. By which authority do mullahs, scholars etc claim the right to deprive a community of their self identity? The fact is that no authority is mentioned other than a vague mission to prevent heretics from corrupting Islam. Clearly these people do not believe that God's own religion can remain uncorrupted in spite of his guarantee of such.

    If one believes that the ahmadi belief is all wrong, well peace to you. Spread your awareness, lobby, teach, unite those who consider ahmadiyyat heresy. After all if God is on your side then the people should follow your faith without question. To legislate against the rights of expression and belief of a particular community, to legalize discriminatio nbased on your numerical superiority is a sign of WEAK faith.. not a strong one.

    That would be like pepsi, Coke, RC and all the other brands getting together to call Gourmet Cola a non-cola and preventing them from using the term cola. It is not because Gourmet brings a "bad name" to colas, but rather the opposite. It is because the big brands fear the redefinition of cola by a brand that is experiencing popular support. SO they attack Gourmet and call their cola a heresy against cola. But Coke or Pepsi does not bother with such plagiarism because it demeans their own brand equity to target a smaller competitor. It would simply raise the profile of Gourmet Cola and reduce the brand credibility of Coke, Pepsi and RC.

    Secondly the acceptance or rejection of Gourmet as a cola is up to the consumers. If a consumer drinks gourmet and considers it to be cola, then who is coke to pass a legislation that the consumer cannot call his drink a cola?

    After all a man's belief is his alone, so he may call it what he wishes. If the consumer is convinced that Gourmet is a Cola, then what right does Coke have to come and tell him he's not allowed to call it Cola?

    Likewise the decription of their belief as Islam is up to the individual. it is not the prerogative of any mullah, or religious leader to deny the individual's right to call his belief what he pleases. That is up to him and it is up to God to judge whether his definition is right or wrong.

    just like Coke has the right to launch an awareness campaign against those brands it considers non-cola, so too do all muslim sects have the right to spread awareness of their belief and warnings against the ahmadi "heresy". But they do not have the right to deprive ahmadis of their God given rights. Just like coke does not have the right to deny Gourmet from selling its vesion of Cola.

    My point is that it is the consumer who must make this choice for himself. No man made authority can do that for him.

    regarding professor Abdus Salam... Just because ahmadis are told to endure law in whatever form, does not mean they are required to accept discrimination when they can live in a place where they are NOT discriminated.

    Abdus Salam did his best for his country but when he left he managed to achieve a greater level of renown and be of greater use to the world as a result of his research.

    It is entirely the choice of the individual whether he wishes to stick around or to leave. Not even the community to which he belongs has the right to make this choice for him. Perhaps he should have stayed.. perhaps not. He could not be faulted for either choice as it was between him and his conscience. However i do certainly understand why he left.. i would perhaps do the same had i felt betrayed like he did.

    Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 7:11 #
  41. Salam
    member

    regarding who is the authority to judge, I think it is both, trust is given to human to make judgement based on codes/rules given for human being and then on the day of judgement Allah swt will judge if one is to go to hell or heaven.

    the issue of judgement is an important one and all societies have mechanisms, methods or processes to give judgement on a subject

    so it is matter of human judgement based on understanding of divine law if a person is murtid or not because there is punishment associated with it and how can the punishment be executed without judgement or same thing on stealing, how to cut hand without judging the case?

    similarly there has got to be a mechanism to see what ingredients make up a coala and what extra ingredients make it non-coala, there has to be a mechanism a process a method and a code according to which human has to judge his or others actions, so i don't agree with the idea of "leaving the judgement"

    as far as injustice to a minority is concerned, I condemn that and if i were the ruler i would ensure that ahmadi get best protection, rights and security in the society.

    Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 7:37 #
  42. hkbajwa
    Member

    @ salam

    thank you for your calm and respectful disagreement. It's the best kind of disagreement there is :)

    I personally believe that there is a difference between laws for the ibaad and laws for allah. Those laws that govern the interaction of human beings and protect haqooq ul ibaad are subject to interpretation and implementation by human beings. theft, murder, violence, fraud etc fall under this heading and must be regulated by human beings in light of the laws laid down in the Quran.

    However the laws the govern the interaction of the individual with God are subject only to judgement by God himself. After all only God can judge whether a man lived up to Haqooq allah or not. The right to define and name one's belief falls under that heading. Only God can judge whether it is affront to him, his Prophet (pbuh) or to his ummah.

    I believe it is every individual's DUTY to be open and preach what he believes in his heart. How others respond to that, whether they listen to him or not is again for the listeners to determine. After all god will judge them when their time comes. This includes also those who hold strong anti-ahmadi views. If my opinion has any value, i consider you to be a very good example of a person communicating their beliefs without restricting others' rights to do the same. Just like i do not belive you have the right to silence ahmadis by force, so too nobody has the right to silence you.

    To deny a certain segment of the population the right to define and express their belief does not in any way safeguard haqooq allah. In fact it goes against haqooq ul ibaad ( the right to equality and religious freedom). And even God himself has termed haqooq ul ibaad to be of higher importance than haqooq allah.

    Anyhow we may end up respectfully afreeing to disagree.. but that's fine by me. Long held beliefs do not change instantly :)

    Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 7:55 #
  43. Salam
    member

    hkbajwa

    i fully agree that the laws that govern the interaction of an individual with God are subject only to judgement by God himself.

    but marriage or inheritance or change of religion etc come under haqooq-ul-ibaad for which people need a judgement meaning can i marry such person or not?

    so in my view this definition of what is coala and what is not coala is important in social context because of overlapping circles like a venn diagram

    Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 8:17 #
  44. zingaro
    Member

    hkbajwa .. you are absolutely wrong when you tried to extrapolate the example of colas. You said that

    "The ahmadis aren't attempting to take over somebody else's brand. They only wish to have their right to call their product COLA. that is something that is public property because it is a product name. "

    I will suggest you to refer to your own books of Ahmadis which not only show their anxiety to to have their right to call their product Islam but even go further and declare that whoever does not accept their slogan is a "kafir, Khanzeer, and the women more than bitches"...

    And you are trying to prove here with the examples to accept and digest this filth? You know what is the problem with you guys? The problem is time frame. Mirza's story is not thousands years old. It has happened just in recent past. Whatever he said, his character, his dirty teachings, every thing is quite known.

    I will rather ask you to give up such beliefs and enter into true Islamic Circle by rejecting the beliefs of Ahmadi/Qadyani or whatever they call themselves.

    Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 8:22 #
  45. hkbajwa
    Member

    @ Zingaro

    thankyou very much for inviting me into the fold of Islam. I must respectfully decline because i do not believe the true islam would engage in aggression towards those who believe differently from me. That is the clear attitude you display.

    Now as i happen to belong to an ahmadi family from my father's side, and have a very criticial view against any sort of religion on from my mother's european side, i can assure you that i have a greater intellectual grasp on the actual goings on and philosophy of the ahmadis. I have never stated my allegiance to ahmadiyyat because i do not believe in allegiances of this sort. The allegiance of those who truly believe need not be spoken. It finds its way through all societies to all people.

    Anyhow what you say is that it is part of the ahmadi credo to denounce, demean and condemn all people who do not conform to ahmmadiyyat. Now i'm sure you will accuse me of lying when i say that isn't so, nevertheless it doesn't change the fact. The ahmedi credo is "Love for all, Hatred for none". All ahmadis are strictly forbidden to resort to conflict in the name of religion. That is why ahmadis have no militants, no violent hardliners and no history of aggression against non-ahmadis.

    Indeed it is a credo that i too believe strongly in even though i do not consider myself to be part of any organized religion.

    I have been raised around a staunchly ahmadi family my whole life and i can assure you that nothing in their manner, perception or attitude indicates any sort of ill will, aggression or condemnation against those who beleive differently.

    Indeed there is anger and frustration over the discriminatory constitional amendments that divide pakistanis into first grade and second grade citizens. Such discrimination under any name and under any guise is wrong. Whether it is certain european laws that discrimnate against those with a muslim background, or chinese legislation that persecutes the falun gong, or Israeli laws that define right to citizenship based on religious origin it is plain wrong.

    Any human being, simply on account of being born a human has the right to be treated equally. Stated affiliations mean nothing in the eyes of God, and it should mean nothing in the eyes of the Law.

    You term his teachings "dirty". That is your opinion and you are welcome to it. FOrtunately for all of us, Opinions do not change Truth. It is my opinion that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad has some pretty smart things to say. And what he has said has resulted in a properous, educated, tolerant, progressive and positive movement. If nothing else, he created 10 million + people with greater unity and greater positive impact on their respective societies.

    While there is no end to the anger and aggression meted out against ahmadis (enough to make even non-ahmadis object) this particular community has managed to remain peaceful. That in itself is an achievement.

    I do not care what they call themselves. I do not care what you call yourself. What i care about is this world and the people in it. I care about people sticking together and helping other people. I care about people having big enough hearts to have the capacity to accept those that are different. I care about giving people confidence in their right to humanity. I care about humanity because God cares about humanity.

    I am truly glad that you do not agree with people saying things like "kafir, khanzeer and women more than bi**es". It is wrong for ANYBODY or ANY organization to speak thus of those who do not agree with them.

    But i can definately assure you (and you would know this if you actually had an ahmadi friend or family member) that such aggression against non-ahmadis simply does not exist. You have been led to believe a falsehood. One cannot say "love for all, hatred for none" and believe the exact opposite.

    Anyhow in relation to DR Abdus Salam. He should have been given due respect and due support from the government and fromt he pakistani nation IRRESPECTIVE of his religious affiliation. They had no bearing on his work as a scientist and to deny him his right to speak of his religion as he wished is to deny him of a right unrelated to his work.

    As a person who had brought honor to Pakistan it was a great injustice that Zia lobbied against him becoming the first Pakistani Secretary General of a UN organization. It is a great injustice that he is not mentioned as a pakistani hero. It is a great injustice that his students have had universities and research institutes names after them, but not him. This inujustice is a result of institutionalized discrimination that has all but attempted to wipe his name from pakistani history. And all because people here decided that they had an exclusive right to the "brand" of islam.

    People seem to forget that nobody owns Islam. Islam is God's, and no human has the authoirity to claim exclusivity.

    Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 9:54 #
  46. hkbajwa
    Member

    @ Salam

    that is why i say Sharia law should be imposed :). sharia law is the law whereby all people will be judged irrespective of religious, ethnic, racial or regional affiliation. It's simple.

    what i am speaking of is not a wussy westernized legislative system. I'm speaking of Islamic Sharia.

    HOWEVER

    The sharia laws should be formulated by all those people on whom it will be imposed. that means every section of Pakistani sciety must be consulted when forumating the Sharia. The actual legal code will be formulated by legal experts. there is nothing mystical or theologically complicated about sharia law. It is not something that cannot be grasped by a sharp legal mind. It does not require religious leaders or prominent mullahs.

    If the quran is there and the hadith are there, then it does not require the involvement of religious figureheads who have a vested interest in maintaining their power and control through religion.

    The Quran and Hadith are adequate sources for any man of sound mind and the requisite legal experience to formulate a constitution and legal system that incorporates those laws.

    A team comprising top legal minds to represent a full spectrum of Pakistans religious, ethnic, and regional diversity will develop a sharia law that does away with all inequalities.

    Sharia is the answer. The only problem is weeding out the vested interests of those for whom sharia is just another tool to control a population.

    Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 10:05 #
  47. Salam
    member

    i agree but i think the term "imposed" is bit misleading, muslims should be judged according to the rule/law/code of qur'an-o-sunnah

    right now people are judged by british penal code (renamed as pakistan penal code) with amendments made by different dictators.

    sharia law has spiritial and material value for a muslim meaning when a punishment is executed then a muslim feels that he will not get punished on day of judgement that is why people at the time of RasoolAllah used to come forward voluntarily because they feared the punishment on day of judgement would be much more tough

    current british system is cause of hypocracy because a muslim believes in Allah & His messenger but is being governed by british laws which he/she tries to evade as much as possible, there is no sense of loyalty to the law because it is a foreign law imposed on people

    Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 10:17 #
  48. hkbajwa
    Member

    @ Salam

    Not just muslims. that's the whole point. It has to be equal to all. Does the law not apply to everybody?

    Imagine yourself as a tourist in a foreign country. While you are there you are subject to the laws of that country. of course you also have the same legal RIGHTS as the citizens of the country. same thing with Islam.

    Only through a completely equal treatment of your minorities can you remove discrimination.

    Any act that is deemed to violate the human rights of a minority should also apply to muslims. for instance if non-muslims have the choice of not appearing in islamiat for their BA, that choice should also be available to muslims. It's a good mechanism to counter the amount of control mullahs wield over the lives of individual muslims also.

    Btw this type of complete equality in sharia law is something the mullahs will die to prevent. If Sharia becomes the mainstream law applicable to everybody, mullah will notbe able to claim any rights of exclusivity to interpret it. That job will belong to the free judiciary. Then regular muslims can start using islamic law to protect themselves, as opposed to now when islamic law is a stick mullahs use to beat muslims into submission.

    I find this thought pretty ideal don't you?

    Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 10:26 #
  49. Any citizen, who brings honor and prestige for Pakistan, in any walk of life, should be respected, irrespective of caste, creed, color, faith and sex.
    Brightness should not be blocked through colored glasses.
    A society which doesn't acknowledge the contributions of its natives, is doomed to frustration.

    Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 10:26 #
  50. Salam
    member

    hkbajwa

    well, different people can have different 'status' in a society for which different clauses of law can apply.

    for example a tourist might have to carry passport with him as ID and may have to pay fine for not having it, but a local citizen may not have to pay fine for that. there can be many other examples that may apply on different 'status' defined according to different laws, this is practiced in all countries

    Posted 1 year ago on 02 Mar 2010 10:31 #

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